Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: eliex on December 04, 2007, 11:43:18 pm
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Think about it. The only reason that the Shivans were able to whip up the GTVA's butts was because of their sheer numbers and the fact that their cap ship were so powerful.
NO THANKS TO THEIR FIGHTERS - OR BOMBERS EITHER!!
Like, a SF Mara has a max. speed of 120, and a SF Aeshma one of 110!
Their weapons are so bad - shields down = dead fighter
A flak gun can single-handedly wipe out an Astaroth.
Maybe it's to even the balance between sheer strength and how should I put it?
Storyline?
Sorry . . . I really interested - can you state your points? :)
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Gameplay issues. Also, you gotta view of Freespace as a universe and not ingame stats. What can be said is that GTVA pilots are superior to Shivan pilots. they apparently receive more training.
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Indeed.
And the GTVA are no strangers to war. Even in FS1 both sides had great fighters. You+'d think that after 32 years and studying captured shivan fighters, they would be far more on pair with the shivies.
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But we only know about the Dragon and the Mara classes. Unless the GTI and the the GTVI divisions are keeping more from us.
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We only saw the Dragon get captured. We really don't know how SOC got their Maras except that they were "captured early in the nebula campaign"
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Besides, even IF the Dragon and Mara were the only shivan fighters captured, you don't think that's enough. IIRC, those were the most advanced shivan fighters crafts known to the GTVA.
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Maybe I'm being greedy but I'd want a captured Seraphim too. :D
Then again Terran Bombers aren't ahead of Shivan bombers in the same way and the best GTVA bomber is based on Shivan bombers.
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I'd like a Manticore (or whatever fighter was seen in the FS2 opening cutscene that can use all of its axis).
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Without the ridiculously strong Alpha 1 the GTVA would've been wiped out.
Storyline-ish, every Shivan ship is superior to it's terran counterpart.
Except the Astaroth.
But, you can easily imagine, if Shivans had even superior weaponry it's double arse kicking.
But their wepons suck. Probably gameplay.
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The Shivans have glaring weaknesses, really. The problem is they're difficult to exploit. The Shivan fleet is optimized for offensive warfare to the point where the simply fall apart on defense; witness much of the Nebular Campaign. The problem is how to make them defend, because aside from their ships themselves, they have no targets one can force them to defend.
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Without the ridiculously strong Alpha 1 the GTVA would've been wiped out.
Storyline-ish, every Shivan ship is superior to it's terran counterpart.
Except the Astaroth.
And the Aeshma. I've yet to see an Aeshma score a kill on anything.
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You can't beat a Ursa...those things are wicked :P
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Gameplay issues. Also, you gotta view of Freespace as a universe and not ingame stats. What can be said is that GTVA pilots are superior to Shivan pilots. they apparently receive more training.
Yours in an assumption. It may or may not be correct.
Shivan pilots are always ready to die and very good in combat. I recall many things in the Universe(not in the game) that lead me to consider Shivan pilots fearsome opponents....the intros. We see Manticores, not even Dragons, wipe out T-V units with impunity. In the Bastion cutscene of FS2 Terran pilots destroy Maras, ok, but don't forget the 70th Blue Lions, that was partecipating to the operation.
We could criticize Terran and Vasudan craft and find plenties of weaknesses...when we fly, let's say, a Hercules I know that in my hands it is a powerful craft while it sucks in the hands of the AI.
I can't claim that the Astaroth, in good hands, is a fearsome opponent because I have never had a chance of using it.
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To me it's somehow logical that the GTVA has better piltos.
If Shivans have better weapons, better ships, FAR greater numbers AND better or equal piltos the GTVA woud have been wiped out long ago. Ergo, I think it's one of the few advantages the GTVA had to use to it's fullest.
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It isn't logical. Keep in mind that many Shivan pilots are veterans of thousands of battles.
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Really? Do we have some proof that the Shivan lifespan is incredibly long, even thousands of years? Can we really assume that the Shivans piloting the fighters were precisely the same individuals that fought in previous battles, possibly even against the Ancients? Nah, too big an assumption.
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Then the veterans trained them...
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Well i guess GTVA did the same... Veterans training the new pilots... :nervous:
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Then the veterans trained them...
Shivans obviously place little value on the lives of individuals. While we go to great lengths to train our pilots and keep then alive (ejection, recovery) to them even large warships are expendable. It might be because training pilots ain't cheap and we humans are stingy.
Anyway, unless they are machines I seriously doubt they have a lifespan of thousands of years.
Every impression I got from FS2 points towards a "drone like" shivan behavior.
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I've got a theory there. What when all the Shivan fighters are in fact computer controlled drones, and maybe only capital ships are crewed?
Please tell me if I'm terribly wrong :D
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...yeah, maybe. But from the Hall Fight we know that at least freighters are manned. Or Shivaned? Whatever...
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I've got a theory there. What when all the Shivan fighters are in fact computer controlled drones, and maybe only capital ships are crewed?
Please tell me if I'm terribly wrong :D
That makes a lot of sense, actually. We've never seen a visible cockpit on any Shivan fighter...and even if there is one, then the Shivan inside may well be biomechanically "fused" with the ship, meaning that the Shivan has no life outside of the fighter (lives to fight, and die, in battle). If it even lives at all. I don't want to speculate too much on the Shivans, though...
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You would have to wonder why both the Mara and Dragon have a space inside big enough to fit a cockpit though.
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You would have to wonder why both the Mara and Dragon have a space inside big enough to fit a cockpit though.
Speculative explanation: The elite fighters have real Shivans in them, or maybe larger brained, but still lesser "class" Shivans relegated to living and dying inside fighters. If the cockpit did not originally exist, it was hollowed out by Intelligence.
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This "no Shivans in fighters" theory is not totally unreasonable, considering there are some Shivan fighters (like the Dragon and Astaroth) where it's kind of an open question as to how the pilot fits in the thing if he looks anything like the ones in Hallfight or from the Silent Threat extras section. Shivans are apparently the size of a small car! Most FS fighters are the size of a decent house, on the other hand, so this is not as much of a problem for many ships.
(As an aside, the poor performance of the Dragon in FS1 may have been caused by having to tear things out to fit Alpha 1.)
Alternatively, being already apparently deeply into cybernetics, it's possible that (some) Shivan pilots are simply brains and a life-support system wired into their fighters. This theory could go interesting places (aggressiveness pumped up by drugs in combat? Cybernetic pyschosis or god complex requiring them to be kept sedated when in a hanger?), but that's totally speculative.
Or the Shivans can just curl up all those extra appendages against themselves and fly like that/plug in directly via their cybernetic bodies. That would make them roughly human-sized, perhaps a bit larger.
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This "no Shivans in fighters" theory is not totally unreasonable, considering there are some Shivan fighters (like the Dragon and Astaroth) where it's kind of an open question as to how the pilot fits in the thing if he looks anything like the ones in Hallfight or from the Silent Threat extras section. Shivans are apparently the size of a small car! Most FS fighters are the size of a decent house, on the other hand, so this is not as much of a problem for many ships.
(As an aside, the poor performance of the Dragon in FS1 may have been caused by having to tear things out to fit Alpha 1.)
ThAlternatively, being already apparently deeply into cybernetics, it's possible that (some) Shivan pilots are simply brains and a life-support system wired into their fighters. This theory could go interesting places (aggressiveness pumped up by drugs in combat? Cybernetic pyschosis or god complex requiring them to be kept sedated when in a hanger?), but that's totally speculative.
Or the Shivans can just curl up all those extra appendages against themselves and fly like that/plug in directly via their cybernetic bodies. That would make them roughly human-sized, perhaps a bit larger.
That is what I was implying. At the risk of going off topic, if the fighters are indeed drones or "lesser Shivans," I think they are controlled by the Lucifer (its destruction shut down its attending fleet) & Sathanas (showed self preservation at end of FreeSpace 2) classes. They house (or physically "are") the real thinking Shivan(s) -- the commander(s) -- relaying his/her/its/their control via Shivan Comm Nodes or other means.
Ripping things out to fit Alpha 1 is dangerous; any mistakes we have a toaster, and have to get another one -- and Dragons are not exactly easy to find let alone capture! Maybe a Shivan was inside the Dragon/Mara, or at least a Shivan as big as a human. A Hallfight size Shivan is possible, because then we could have just inserted a standard Terran cockpit (the size of a car) to overlay and interface with the existing Shivan cockpit.
Actually achieving control over the ship is maybe a simple matter of wiring up our standard Terran controls to whatever central processor core was inside the ship --- whether that be a computer or ripping the appendages off of a Shivan and attaching them to a standard Terran flight control system. It doesn't really matter which method was used...although the latter is much more disturbing. :p
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Shivans are definitely cybernetic and there are definitely shivan pilots in their fighters. We see cockpits on all of them (n some, it's a bit more difficult to make out)
that said it's quite likely that they do connect with the fighter, rather than use a joystick.
But still, nothing I've seen in FS 1 or 2 leads me to believe that they have great pilots - quite the opposite.
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Okay . . . that's going a bit too far . . .
But maybe 'cause Volition said that they might be symtoms of a much bigger problem, well, then maybe their numbers are
so large because their cloned.
Or even more unrealistic they use other species as integrated into their ships?
:nervous:
The only decent bomber is the Nahema, it can dogfight.
GOOD BOMBERS = ONES THAT CAN ONLY LIVE TO FIRE THEIR FIRST ROUND ( and that doesn't even count hitting the target)
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When a fighter gets to the back of a Seraphim < the so-called "ultimate bomber" >
the bomber can't even fly away!
Sad though that the modern GTVA bombers don't even get turrets on their ships anymore . . .
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When a fighter gets to the back of a Seraphim < the so-called "ultimate bomber" >
the bomber can't even fly away!
Sad though that the modern GTVA bombers don't even get turrets on their ships anymore . . .
Using this to segue back into the main topic, the Shivans use poorly constructed ships outfitted with uber-shield systems. Anyone remember the first mission in Freespace when you fly against Shivans? It was their uber shields that took forever to take down. The reasons us humans are perhaps the first to successfully combat (or at least quasi-drive off) the Shivans is because of our uncanny ability to adapt. We disabled a Mara and studied it. One of the early cutscenes in Freespace was the successful construction of a shield system for Terran fighters. The Shivans never saw this coming, couldn't adapt. The GTVA also took the laser technology from the Shivans and improved the GTVA's weaponry. Anyone remember the original Subach (been too long since I've played the original game, could be something else)? That thing slaughtered the Shivan swarms in the original game. In Freespace 2 the only concern is the Shivans' sheer numbers. Their weapons are fairly powerful, but their numbers are their adaptation, if you will, to our effective combat techniques. It was after we developed the technology to shield our fighters/bombers and penetrate their shields that the Shivans became "weak."
Then we saw the Lucifer (with invincible - you guessed it - shields) and got our monkey-butts kicked. The only way the GTVA was able to destroy the Lucifer was when we caught it warping into Sol and its shields were down. If you remember in that last mission of Freespace, the Lucifer's hull was fairly weak, allowing the new advanced GTVA technology to make quick work of the behemoth. In Freespace 2, the Shivans more or less adapted to this and thew us another curveball, a Juggernaut that had a strong hull but no shields. Perhaps it is not that the Shivans are actually weak, but rather that they are so used to victory that they no longer (if they ever in the first place were able to) adapt quickly. It was the quick thinking of the GTVA and its collective scientific genius that allowed the Human and Vasudan species to continue to exist. So no, they are not weak, they are strong in force and number, but they cannot adapt as quickly as the humans and must resort to brute force.
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Actually, the Lucifer still has a stronger hull than any other FS1 ship, IIRC. It was just those silly reactors being all exposed that brought it down.
But yeah, I think Spartan's hit the nail on the head: the Shivans are so used to their advanced technology and numbers winning the day that they've forgotten how to improvise and come up with new stuff (it is arguable whether any new Shivan ships in FS2 are "new" or merely "not used in first war").
And yet... they may still have the tech advantage after all... remember that we didn't beat the Shivans in FS2. Capella exploding kinda got in the way of the war... or maybe the GTVA was in the way of the Shivan's true objective, whatever that was. Plus they managed to construct over 80 Sathanes, and I'm willing to bet that that isn't their entire military. Hinting at vast shipyards with production capabilities unparalleled in GTVA tech.
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I've said it before, but it bears a bit of modification.
The Shivans are, very clearly, used to being the aggressors, and they are good at it. They have an excellent grasp of how to use their superior mobility (advanced subspace technologies) to best effect. They understand how to properly exploit shock effect, confusion, and hampered enemy reactions. At the strategic level, the Shivans are quite capable practioners of manuver warfare; the only thing they really seem to lack is a systematic effort to disrupt enemy command, control, and communications. (Or possibly the understanding of Terrans and Vasudans to make such an effort.)
At the tactical level, however, the Shivans are very different. They fight with great ferocity, and are rigorous in their pursuits, but they solve problems by pouring resources on them and use sledgehammers to smash flies. There is little finesse to Shivan operations, and it shows. Their saving grace is that they can afford to do these things, because their opponents often do not have the resources available to exploit their weaknesses.
One could make an excellent parallel with the Soviet Union's army; they had excellent strategic knowledge, and produced some very fine operational- and strategic-level commanders, but at a tactical level they mostly had to resort to blunt force trauma because that was what they could reliably deliever at that level.
The main Shivan advantage, however, is summed up by a quote from Clauswitz. The offence "is complete within itself." The Shivans are pure attackers. You cannot tie them down and force them to defend something. The only targets of real value are their warships themselves. We know the Shivans have logistical targets, cargo craft and cargo depots, but we have never seen a factory. Defeating the Shivans forces one to adopt the most ancient and inefficent method of defeating someone: you have to kill them all. No other method of destroying their warmaking capacity will avail, because those require you to be able to deprive them of the tools or the will to fight. The Shivans are almost without exception xenocidal, and the GTVA has no means of cutting them off from their supplies because these have no apparent source. Victory can only come from destroying each and every Shivan fightercraft and capital ship. And this the GTA/PVN or GTVA simply does not have the firepower to accomplish.
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Read 1st page, 2nd was too many long replys.
Ok guys, i am very surpirzed im the one mentioning this but:
Was not the expected lifespan of GTVA pilots, every 3-4 misisons before they died? That was mentioned by people at HLP before so im re saying it now.
GTVA's advantage is sole, and was told to us. We adapted. We learned how to adapt and survived by the skin of our teath. We lost FS1, killed Vasuda, and nearly got to Sol. FS2, we sent suicide ships to blow up nodes left and right.
Anyways, guys come On. Stop the stuipd ****. GTVA pilots are superior? What kinda **** is that. What general message did the freespace series give us? Shivans kick ass, and are to be feared. Tehy destroyed the ancients. They outgun us, out nubmer us, and their pilots are just as good, but most likely MUCH better then us.
As said, one human pilot (Alpha 1) can do amazing things, and real people can do a hell of alot better then a wing of AI, but no respawns..
but, Shivans no dobut were better than us. Are*. FS1 cutseen. Those normaly weak fighters, tore up his ship, and his whole wing (the whole front lines) pirtty dam hard. They had better guns, just the gameplay evens it out some.
And for the love of god. Start playing missions on insane, see how tough Shivan pilots really are. They prove that they are to be feared. A few hits and your shields are gone, that will get the fear of god in you (Shivans in this case).
Am i the only one who has the same opinions as me?
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Read 1st page, 2nd was too many long replys.
Ok guys, i am very surpirzed im the one mentioning this but:
Was not the expected lifespan of GTVA pilots, every 3-4 misisons before they died? That was mentioned by people at HLP before so im re saying it now.
If that
GTVA's advantage is sole, and was told to us. We adapted. We learned how to adapt and survived by the skin of our teath. We lost FS1, killed Vasuda, and nearly got to Sol. FS2, we sent suicide ships to blow up nodes left and right.
True
Anyways, guys come On. Stop the stuipd ****. GTVA pilots are superior? What kinda **** is that. What general message did the freespace series give us? Shivans kick ass, and are to be feared. Tehy destroyed the ancients. They outgun us, out nubmer us, and their pilots are just as good, but most likely MUCH better then us.
maybe
As said, one human pilot (Alpha 1) can do amazing things, and real people can do a hell of alot better then a wing of AI, but no respawns..
but, Shivans no dobut were better than us. Are*. FS1 cutseen. Those normaly weak fighters, tore up his ship, and his whole wing (the whole front lines) pirtty dam hard. They had better guns, just the gameplay evens it out some.
true
And for the love of god. Start playing missions on insane, see how tough Shivan pilots really are. They prove that they are to be feared. A few hits and your shields are gone, that will get the fear of god in you (Shivans in this case).
Ya, better play on Insane if you want it more realistic
Am i the only one who has the same opinions as me?
most likely :p :lol:
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We disabled a Mara and studied it.
That'd be a Dragon. Maras appeared in FS2.
The GTVA also took the laser technology from the Shivans and improved the GTVA's weaponry.
K, maybe. The way I understood it originally was that the Terrans and Vasudans studied the shield technology and then started modifying the weapons to make them more effective against Shivan shields. And do remember that they didn't have GTVA back then. Only GTA and PVN.
Anyone remember the original Subach (been too long since I've played the original game, could be something else)?
And that'd be the Avenger cannon.
Then we saw the Lucifer (with invincible - you guessed it - shields) and got our monkey-butts kicked. The only way the GTVA was able to destroy the Lucifer was when we caught it warping into Sol and its shields were down. If you remember in that last mission of Freespace, the Lucifer's hull was fairly weak, allowing the new advanced GTVA technology to make quick work of the behemoth.
As was already stated, the Lucifer was beaten because 1) it's shield, like the shields of any ship, went down in subspace and 2) because the bombers of the attack group took out the Lucifer's reactors, which lead to some cataclysmic reaction, effectively blowning the ship up.
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There is little finesse to Shivan operations, and it shows.
The strange thing is that they are capable of such finesse (look at the trap they set in Pandora's Box for instance) but don't seem to do it.
Incidentally I just found this debriefing stage in the mission for if you actually manage to scan the cargo containers containing the Shivan shielding equipment.
Your success in acquiring the shield technology against such overwhelming odds has indicated to us that you are, in truth, working with the Shivans. Your interrogation is scheduled for 0930. You will be escorted to the brig.
Recommendation : If you are going to cheat, do it a little less blatantly.
:lol:
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Anyways, guys come On. Stop the stuipd ****. GTVA pilots are superior? What kinda **** is that. What general message did the freespace series give us? Shivans kick ass, and are to be feared. Tehy destroyed the ancients. They outgun us, outnubmer us, and their pilots are just as good, but most likely MUCH better then us.
Not really. Unless GTVA pilots are better, then FS is more a fairy tale than Cinderella...becoause it's really la stretch to believe that with ALL the friggin advantages, we beaten them back. HEck, I have a easier time believing the s*** from SW: Episode 1
As said, one human pilot (Alpha 1) can do amazing things, and real people can do a hell of alot better then a wing of AI, but no respawns..
but, Shivans no dobut were better than us. Are*. FS1 cutseen. Those normaly weak fighters, tore up his ship, and his whole wing (the whole front lines) pirtty dam hard. They had better guns, just the gameplay evens it out some.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the shivans attacked a vasudan and terran PATROLS that were engaged in a skirmish (probably damaged fighters among them already, thinned numbers) without warning. So they had the element of suprise, shielding, far better weapons, probably greater numbers (patrols aren't really big) and a circumstantial advantage (the other two were fighting eachother already).
So HOW does this exactly tell you shivans are amazing fighter pilots? :wtf:
Especially since the GTVA seemed to be doing quite fine against them (except for the Lucy)
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Maybe Terrans and Vasudans just have a better "Survival Instinct." Maybe we're just better with our backs up against the wall than the Shivans are. I don't know.
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First: Play on "Extreme" and then think about it again.
Second: Without the ridiculously strong Alpha 1 the GTVA would've been wiped out.
Modify any mission to let the player be an AI pilot and see GTVA obliterated !
Third: And don't forget that the Shivans are absolutly unbeatable until the humans steal the shield technology from them.
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Hmm. No particular reason to think this, but has anyone considered that the Hallfight Shivans might be a specialized marine caste, a security system, or even biomechanical servitors - rather than actual Shivans?
As Mina Hargrove said, 'Shivans exhibit considerable diversity as species.' Perhaps we anthrocentric humans aren't thinking broadly enough: what if every Shivan vessel is itself a Shivan, a specialized organism?
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Hmm. No particular reason to think this, but has anyone considered that the Hallfight Shivans might be a specialized marine caste, a security system, or even biomechanical servitors - rather than actual Shivans?
Didn't :v: state that the creatures we saw in Hallfight were actual Shivans? Meaning that they can't be just servants or 'security systems'. Who knows whether they have some caste system, but at least those things were some form of Shivans.
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Tehy did. The Hallfight shivans ARE the real shivans.
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Whether they were using some kind of suit is another question though. I don't know if the :v: quote clarifies that the Hallfighters are actual un-suited Shivans or not? The FSRefBible states that the Shivans are capable of extended survival in vacuum, but was that eventually written out?
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"Shivans have multiple eyes, some of which seem to have the function of compound eyes, not unlike some varieties of insects. Shivans also have five legs, and can run equally well over a floor or over a ceiling. It has been hypothesized that Shivans may have spent their evolutionary process in a zero-gravity environment. Each Shivan leg ends in a very strong claw, capable of crushing even the sturdiest of known alloys. Parts of their thorax seem to act as compartments, such as ones that might be found on a space suit. It has been suggested that what we have actually seen have been either robots or organic creatures in some sort of exo-skeleton. However, we have, at present, no reason to support either hypothesis.
Their insect like carapace does not appear original to the creature's physiology, suggesting the Shivans are a cybernetic fusion of biology and technology. The integrated plasma weapon also exhibits properties of an organic artificial fusion. The weapon may be a kind of focusing device powered by the energy of the being itself, though this point is the subject of heated controversy. These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity. Only a handful of Shivans have ever been captured, and all research on live specimens ended with the GTI's Hades Rebellion in 2336. The results of these studies remain highly classified."
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Hallf ight showed us actual Shivans. Volition quite famously said that flat out.
Now whether there are other castes is another matter.
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The GTVA also took the laser technology from the Shivans and improved the GTVA's weaponry.
K, maybe. The way I understood it originally was that the Terrans and Vasudans studied the shield technology and then started modifying the weapons to make them more effective against Shivan shields. And do remember that they didn't have GTVA back then. Only GTA and PVN.
Actually, as I recall, the Vasudans worked with the Terran scientists to develop the technology. The GTVA was a spur-of-the-moment alliance that, after the Lucifer was destroyed, became a little more solidified.
As was already stated, the Lucifer was beaten because 1) it's shield, like the shields of any ship, went down in subspace and 2) because the bombers of the attack group took out the Lucifer's reactors, which lead to some cataclysmic reaction, effectively blowing the ship up.
Yes, but it was the invulnerable shields that kept us from destroying the Lucy. I don't recall the actual Hit Point count, but I know that Shivan ships have typically weak hulls. It wouldn't be a leap by any means to say that the Lucifer had a weak hull (how'd we even hit the reactors if the hull wasn't weak), seeing as its shield would suffice. We didn't even have Beam technology, and it was merely bombers that destroyed it, not capships as I recall.
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I've said it before, but it bears a bit of modification.
The Shivans are, very clearly, used to being the aggressors, and they are good at it. They have an excellent grasp of how to use their superior mobility (advanced subspace technologies) to best effect. They understand how to properly exploit shock effect, confusion, and hampered enemy reactions. At the strategic level, the Shivans are quite capable practioners of manuver warfare; the only thing they really seem to lack is a systematic effort to disrupt enemy command, control, and communications. (Or possibly the understanding of Terrans and Vasudans to make such an effort.)
At the tactical level, however, the Shivans are very different. They fight with great ferocity, and are rigorous in their pursuits, but they solve problems by pouring resources on them and use sledgehammers to smash flies. There is little finesse to Shivan operations, and it shows. Their saving grace is that they can afford to do these things, because their opponents often do not have the resources available to exploit their weaknesses.
One could make an excellent parallel with the Soviet Union's army; they had excellent strategic knowledge, and produced some very fine operational- and strategic-level commanders, but at a tactical level they mostly had to resort to blunt force trauma because that was what they could reliably deliever at that level.
The main Shivan advantage, however, is summed up by a quote from Clauswitz. The offence "is complete within itself." The Shivans are pure attackers. You cannot tie them down and force them to defend something. The only targets of real value are their warships themselves. We know the Shivans have logistical targets, cargo craft and cargo depots, but we have never seen a factory. Defeating the Shivans forces one to adopt the most ancient and inefficent method of defeating someone: you have to kill them all. No other method of destroying their warmaking capacity will avail, because those require you to be able to deprive them of the tools or the will to fight. The Shivans are almost without exception xenocidal, and the GTVA has no means of cutting them off from their supplies because these have no apparent source. Victory can only come from destroying each and every Shivan fightercraft and capital ship. And this the GTA/PVN or GTVA simply does not have the firepower to accomplish.
This is very astute. :yes:
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The GTVA also took the laser technology from the Shivans and improved the GTVA's weaponry.
K, maybe. The way I understood it originally was that the Terrans and Vasudans studied the shield technology and then started modifying the weapons to make them more effective against Shivan shields. And do remember that they didn't have GTVA back then. Only GTA and PVN.
Actually, as I recall, the Vasudans worked with the Terran scientists to develop the technology. The GTVA was a spur-of-the-moment alliance that, after the Lucifer was destroyed, became a little more solidified.
The GTVA didn't exist until after the GW. There was an alliance during the GW, but technically not the governing body that the GTVA is.
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Well, Alpha 1, (you, duh!) is essentially the firepower of a Colossus (toned down a bit) and the skill of a bally flippin whatchamachallit. He is a Juggernaught in a fighter. with Subachs.
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Exactly. And if people say that when you put Shivans on Insane levels on FRED, then it's more realistic,
how about YOU playing shivan and fighting another GTF Perseus on INSANE.
You die nearly right away ( and that's Dragon) ;)
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The GTVA also took the laser technology from the Shivans and improved the GTVA's weaponry.
K, maybe. The way I understood it originally was that the Terrans and Vasudans studied the shield technology and then started modifying the weapons to make them more effective against Shivan shields. And do remember that they didn't have GTVA back then. Only GTA and PVN.
Actually, as I recall, the Vasudans worked with the Terran scientists to develop the technology. The GTVA was a spur-of-the-moment alliance that, after the Lucifer was destroyed, became a little more solidified.
That'd be the shield technology. Once the GTA and PVN had acquired enough intelligence about Shivan technology, they began working on the shield systems and we saw that funky cutscene about the subject. But the Avenger was just another Terran weapon. McCarthy tried to steal the prototypes and sell them to the Vasudans, but was stopped. Then, when the Shivans arrived, GTA began modifying the Avenger to make it more effective against the shields. I really don't remember hearing any implications in-game, that would have stated that the Avenger was a joint project. And there was no GTVA. There were the GTA and the PVN. Once the Shivans appeared and conclusions were made, the GTA and the PVN did make a truce, and later an alliance. But it was just an alliance at that point. Just a means of trying to beat the Shivans. Even all the briefings talked about the GTA, and occasionally the PVN. The actual GTVA from FS2 was formed only after the Great War.
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Correct. The Avenger was 100% terran and was already in prototype stages BEFORE the shivans came.
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On insane, Shivan ships are still poop with(out) guns when compared to NTF fighters.
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Then the veterans trained them...
Shivans obviously place little value on the lives of individuals. While we go to great lengths to train our pilots and keep then alive (ejection, recovery) to them even large warships are expendable. It might be because training pilots ain't cheap and we humans are stingy.
Anyway, unless they are machines I seriously doubt they have a lifespan of thousands of years.
Every impression I got from FS2 points towards a "drone like" shivan behavior.
It doesn't mean the Shivans don't actually want to have good pilots. Again, the Manticores that appeared in both intro cutscenes were terrible opponents.
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Not really.
In the FS1 intro the ship was damaged, without shields and loosing power...and chased by a dozen manticores.
In the FS2 intro there was a huge battle going on with ships popping all over the place.
The Herc is a sluggish fighter and we don't know the skill level of it's pilot (it was a major battle so you can bet there were enough rookies in the fight)
The only other fighter lost in the intro were the medusa bomber - one lost to a lot of firepower by a LOT of enemy fighters, the other two by a beam cannon from the Lucifer.
numbers are the shivans game, not skill.
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And who damaged Lt. Ash's Apollo and destroyed his wingmen plus the Vasudan they were fighting? :P
I'm talking about the meneuvers of the Manticore in FS2, not the skill of the pilot who flew the Hercules. If something like that could be represented ingame(it's partially possible with inertia and doubled speed) you wouldn't consider Shivan fighters weak opponents.
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shivans may be considered weak because they appera to have no imagination also they tend to use brute force and overwhealming numbers to beark the enemys defences rather then sophiticated tactics to take out the enemy! Sure the shivans almost always win but then again they do so with huge losses ! Sure if you happen to be an idiot who believes he can use the same tactic agains a race which basicly wrote the boock on brute force attacks then you are gooing to lose but if you play it smart you can inflict such horrific losses agains the shivans that if they num,bers were lets say 10 times that of the GTVA then the GTVA would win hand down! There would be no arguement there! But sadly they aparently outnumber the GTVA 80 to 1 so unless you can shoot down 80 shivan ships for every one you lost you have no hope of even drawing them to a stalemate!
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Who said that the Shivans sortied all of their Juggernauts in Capella? The ratio is much more than 80:1.
They win thanks to the numbers but it doesn't mean they're not experienced and skilled. The Shivans seem easy to defeat just because the player is Terran!
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And who damaged Lt. Ash's Apollo and destroyed his wingmen plus the Vasudan they were fighting? :P
Lots of shivan...shields..advanced weapons..jumping two patrols ALREADY FIGHTING...yeah. :rolleyes:
shivan pilots must be brilliant to take out a few damaged patrols fighters with the element of surprise, superior numbers and technology. :rolleyes:
Oh wait - one did actually ESCAPE!!!! :eek2:
I'm talking about the meneuvers of the Manticore in FS2, not the skill of the pilot who flew the Hercules. If something like that could be represented ingame(it's partially possible with inertia and doubled speed) you wouldn't consider Shivan fighters weak opponents.[/i][/color]
there was nothing special about it's manouvres.
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Lots of shivan...shields..advanced weapons..jumping two patrols ALREADY FIGHTING...yeah. :rolleyes:
shivan pilots must be brilliant to take out a few damaged patrols fighters with the element of surprise, superior numbers and technology. :rolleyes:
Oh wait - one did actually ESCAPE!!!! :eek2:
So? It doesn't mean they sucks. The Shivans let Ash survive because they needed to find the Terran outpost!
Until the development of shields taking a Shivan fighter down was nearly impossible. Strange, two or more skilled pilots should be able to handle an inferior pilot with ML-16s :rolleyes:
I'm talking about the meneuvers of the Manticore in FS2, not the skill of the pilot who flew the Hercules. If something like that could be represented ingame(it's partially possible with inertia and doubled speed) you wouldn't consider Shivan fighters weak opponents.
there was nothing special about it's manouvres.
2) Learn how to quote colored posts. The meneuvers aren't exactly the same of Gryphus 1 in ACX, but they're much better than what the Manticore do ingame. Try to imagine 3-4 of those Manticores attacking you.
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2) Learn how to quote colored posts. The meneuvers aren't exactly the same of Gryphus 1 in ACX, but they're much better than what the Manticore do ingame. Try to imagine 3-4 of those Manticores attacking you.
I know how to quote colored posts! I AM SO COOL!! :cool:
The Manticores in the cutscenes appear to be able to move in all three axes (note the Manticores movements as it fires the lasers just before destroying Lt. Ash's fighter).
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So? It doesn't mean they sucks. The Shivans let Ash survive because they needed to find the Terran outpost!
Until the development of shields taking a Shivan fighter down was nearly impossible. Strange, two or more skilled pilots should be able to handle an inferior pilot with ML-16s :rolleyes:[/i]
Pffft...with 100's of fighters and sensors you think tehy'd have trouble finding an outpost that's also a trade hub..that doesn't even try to remain hidden at the least? :rolleyes:
2) Learn how to quote colored posts. The meneuvers aren't exactly the same of Gryphus 1 in ACX, but they're much better than what the Manticore do ingame. Try to imagine 3-4 of those Manticores attacking you.
And we know terran fighters can't move like that in the REAL FS universe exactly how? And what would that have to do with pilot skill btw? :wtf: Or does a better fihgter = better pilot for you?
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And besides, it's not exactly like the Lucifer or whatever destroyer appeared by the stationjust happened to be standing by when the Shivans who were attacking Ash's fighter found out where Ross 128 was
UNLESS of course the Lucifer already knew where Ross 128 was!
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The Manticore can move on all 3 axis in-game, it's one of the few Shivan fighters that do. All Terran / Vasudan ones are stuck on regular axis, as well as most Shivan fighters.
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So? It doesn't mean they sucks. The Shivans let Ash survive because they needed to find the Terran outpost!
Until the development of shields taking a Shivan fighter down was nearly impossible. Strange, two or more skilled pilots should be able to handle an inferior pilot with ML-16s :rolleyes:
Pffft...with 100's of fighters and sensors you think tehy'd have trouble finding an outpost that's also a trade hub..that doesn't even try to remain hidden at the least? :rolleyes:
My posts are blue, BLUE!!!
The GTVA couldn't find the Repulse, keep this in mind...the GTVA had to lure it to the battlefield! There already are many topics about radar systems. During FS2, scouts found rebel and Shivan ships. Scouts, not long range sensors. Sensors also played their role, but the scouts turned out to be vital. You need time to get the signal of a warship from long distance, you will never be able to destroy NTF ships approaching a rally point if you detect the rally point...let's see...when most ships are already gone.
The Manticores jumped out and then attacked Ash, they undoubtely left a survivor to discover the location of the base. There aren't proofs, but I bet that the Manticores that attacked Ash at the end of the cutscene were the same Ash engaged before. A small number of fighters that "better pilots" should have been able to handle :P
Maybe they left a Vasudan survivor, too. Who knows?
2) Learn how to quote colored posts. The meneuvers aren't exactly the same of Gryphus 1 in ACX, but they're much better than what the Manticore do ingame. Try to imagine 3-4 of those Manticores attacking you.
And we know terran fighters can't move like that in the REAL FS universe exactly how? And what would that have to do with pilot skill btw? :wtf: Or does a better fihgter = better pilot for you?
Look. The speed was also different. Watch all cutscenes where a spacecraft appears and tell me if the ingame speed is the same.
With high speeds fighters like the Manticore are difficult to defeat in a dogfight. A fast fighter has a thin armor and a slow fighter has a heavy armor. In the game slow and armored fighters have a considerable advantage. It doesn't happen in the Universe. Use Joshua's tables...
Ah, also look at the Astaroth. Ingame physics make it a weak fighter. It becomes stronger with different physics(please note that different physics means "Universe physics", in this case).
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My posts are blue, BLUE!!!
No one else cares Mobius. We don't have to respect your affectations :p
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Try to learn how to quote colored posts :P
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Try to learn how to quote colored posts :P[/i][/color]
No one else cares. Really. Besides, the colours shouldn't affect the contents of the posts. Which means that they aren't necessary when quoting.
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Try to learn how to quote colored posts :P
No one else cares. Really. Besides, the colours shouldn't affect the contents of the posts. Which means that they aren't necessary when quoting.
Well, the fact that they "magically" become colored when I quote your posts satisfies me. Now let's return on topic.
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The Repulse was hidden. Outpost Riviera was not. I think leaving Ash alive was a minor mistake on the Shivan's part.
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The Manticores jumped out and then attacked Ash, they undoubtely left a survivor to discover the location of the base. There aren't proofs, but I bet that the Manticores that attacked Ash at the end of the cutscene were the same Ash engaged before. A small number of fighters that "better pilots" should have been able to handle :P
Maybe they left a Vasudan survivor, too. Who knows?[/i]
Where do you get a "small" number? The Lucifer carried a LOT of fighters. Vasudans and terrans PATROLS (patrols are by definition small - I'd assume a single wing) have been fighting, thus were already damaged, some fighters might have bought it even before the shivies joined the party. They had no shields, no effective weapons against shivan shields.
You as a player can barely kill one Scorpio fighter.
Now watch that cutscene again and count the number of shivan fighter appearing. A lot.
Now give Alpha 1 a damaged fighter wiht ML-16 and throw 12 manticores at it. Let's see how long you live.
Oh, I don't quote color becouse I DON'T WANT TO.
With high speeds fighters like the Manticore are difficult to defeat in a dogfight. A fast fighter has a thin armor and a slow fighter has a heavy armor. In the game slow and armored fighters have a considerable advantage. It doesn't happen in the Universe. Use Joshua's tables...
Ah, also look at the Astaroth. Ingame physics make it a weak fighter. It becomes stronger with different physics(please note that different physics means "Universe physics", in this case).[/i][/color]
and I ask again - what does that have to do wiht pilot skill? Shivans had better fighters - we all know that. How does that affect piloting skill in any way if not negatively? (they had far better fighters and we still killed them off! Their pilots must suck)
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Hmm... Mobius, what weapons were available for your use to kill your first Shivan in FS1? At the time of my first Shivan kill, I only had the ML-16. So. Did you use an Avenger or an ML-16?
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Did you use an Avenger or an ML-16?
I used Furies and Disruptors.
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The Repulse was hidden. Outpost Riviera was not. I think leaving Ash alive was a minor mistake on the Shivan's part.
Eh? The Repulse didn't have jamming systems.
Real Admiral Koth is somewhere in this system. He will not commit the Repulse unless it's absolutely necessary.
I don't see references to jamming systems. The point is that you need time to get a detailled scan of a system. You might detect the Repulse and send a strike force but you will surely find nothing since the warship is most likely to change its location periodically.
The Manticores jumped out and then attacked Ash, they undoubtely left a survivor to discover the location of the base. There aren't proofs, but I bet that the Manticores that attacked Ash at the end of the cutscene were the same Ash engaged before. A small number of fighters that "better pilots" should have been able to handle :P
Maybe they left a Vasudan survivor, too. Who knows?
Where do you get a "small" number? The Lucifer carried a LOT of fighters. Vasudans and terrans PATROLS (patrols are by definition small - I'd assume a single wing) have been fighting, thus were already damaged, some fighters might have bought it even before the shivies joined the party. They had no shields, no effective weapons against shivan shields.
You as a player can barely kill one Scorpio fighter.
Now watch that cutscene again and count the number of shivan fighter appearing. A lot.
Now give Alpha 1 a damaged fighter wiht ML-16 and throw 12 manticores at it. Let's see how long you live.
Oh, I don't quote color becouse I DON'T WANT TO.
I see only a handful of Manticores at the end of the cutscene. How can you claim that the ones that decimated TV patrols were in a big number?
Oh God, they're following me! Mayday! This is Lieutenant Ash on Terran Patrol wing Gamma, Three Niner, reporting... Taken heavy damage! Requesting immediate fighter cover and rescue. Come in anybody!
Oh thank God! Our wing was ambushed - we didn't have a chance! I'm sure they're tracking me.
I--I don't know. They weren't Vasudan, and they weren't Terran. Oh God, they're these death-black ships -
- and they flew like -
- and their weapons were too much. They wasted everyone!
Send FIGHTERS! I--I know they're following me. Send everything you have now!
I can feel them following me.
Oh my God! I'm dead! We're all dead!
It's too late! Oh God!
(as his fighter explodes) Aaaaaaaaaahhh!
They were likely to be the same Manticores that attacked TV patrols. Read carefully what Ash said. Do you think the Shivans had only better weapons and fighters at their advantage? What led Ash to realize that even GTA assets defending Outpost Riviera wouldn't have been enough? The Shivans must have been terrible in combat to turn a GTA pilot into a rabbit.
With high speeds fighters like the Manticore are difficult to defeat in a dogfight. A fast fighter has a thin armor and a slow fighter has a heavy armor. In the game slow and armored fighters have a considerable advantage. It doesn't happen in the Universe. Use Joshua's tables...
Ah, also look at the Astaroth. Ingame physics make it a weak fighter. It becomes stronger with different physics(please note that different physics means "Universe physics", in this case).
and I ask again - what does that have to do wiht pilot skill? Shivans had better fighters - we all know that. How does that affect piloting skill in any way if not negatively? (they had far better fighters and we still killed them off! Their pilots must suck)
They had good pilots and good fighters. Is it too hard to believe?!?
Hmm... Mobius, what weapons were available for your use to kill your first Shivan in FS1? At the time of my first Shivan kill, I only had the ML-16. So. Did you use an Avenger or an ML-16?
ML-16. Pay attention on the debriefing. The player is the only pilot who destroyed a Shivan. Strange, since they only have the advantage of flying better fighters while the pilots suck :rolleyes:
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The Repulse was hidden. Outpost Riviera was not. I think leaving Ash alive was a minor mistake on the Shivan's part.
Eh? The Repulse didn't have jamming systems.
Real Admiral Koth is somewhere in this system. He will not commit the Repulse unless it's absolutely necessary.
I don't see references to jamming systems. The point is that you need time to get a detailled scan of a system. You might detect the Repulse and send a strike force but you will surely find nothing since the warship is most likely to change its location periodically.[/i][/color]
I said it was hiding somewhere in the system. I didn't say it was using jamming systems. Riviera probably had loads and loads of freighters and cruisers whizzing around doing crappy things. By vectoring incoming ship's subspace jumps, you could easily find the location of Outpost Riviera. It made no effort to remain hidden. The repulse, par contre, made an effort to remain hidden from the Colossus. It may have powered-down non-essential systems as well as stayed away from the main battlefields, or not allowed ships to go near it and give its position away.
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By saying that you're giving for sure that NTF ships turned out non essential systems when they moved to they rallying positions.
An how can you vector the course of freighters from a random location of the system? You must encounter them first(maybe the Shivans can do it with their advantaged technology)! The Shivans simply decided to leave a survivor, they were sure of the consequences. Maybe...they always do this way.
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By saying that you're giving for sure that NTF ships turned out non essential systems when they moved to they rallying positions.
Am I? I didn't say ANYTHING about rallying positions. :rolleyes:
An how can you vector the course of freighters from a random location of the system? You must encounter them first(maybe the Shivans can do it with their advantaged technology)! The Shivans simply decided to leave a survivor, they were sure of the consequences. Maybe...they always do this way.
Vectoring the subspace jumps is possible by using sensors. Reconnaissance craft could easily have done this without being detected.
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1) Your theory implies a reference to NTF rally positions. The GTVA used scouts to find them and tracked ships into subspace when it was possible.
2) I hope you're only refering to Shivan craft ;)
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I see only a handful of Manticores at the end of the cutscene. How can you claim that the ones that decimated TV patrols were in a big number?
Shivans like big numbers..and it was one terran and one vasudan patrol. That would be roughly 8 fighters (assuming none was destroyed during their fighting).
there were approx 6 manticores behind Ash, the Lucy in front of him, and more fighters jumping in.
Oh thank God! Our wing was ambushed - we didn't have a chance! I'm sure they're tracking me.
I--I don't know. They weren't Vasudan, and they weren't Terran. Oh God, they're these death-black ships -
- and they flew like -
- and their weapons were too much. They wasted everyone!
Tehy were ambushed by superior fighters with superior weapons. I say again - where do you see proof of shivan superior piloting skills?
Is it "and they flew like"? Since that can mean many things since the sentance isn't finished - possibly refering to the unusually high mobility of the manticore.
Read carefully what Ash said. Do you think the Shivans had only better weapons and fighters at their advantage?
And inabiltiy to track and lock. And surprise. And bigger numbers (tehy were attacked by the lucifer fighters)
What led Ash to realize that even GTA assets defending Outpost Riviera wouldn't have been enough? The Shivans must have been terrible in combat to turn a GTA pilot into a rabbit.
Maby the superior technology, the inabiltiy to target or hurt their fighters...the Lucifer?
ML-16. Pay attention on the debriefing. The player is the only pilot who destroyed a Shivan. Strange, since they only have the advantage of flying better fighters while the pilots suck :rolleyes:
What's so strange? I never managed to kill more than 1 in that mission. Not only are they nigh impossible to bring down with ML-16's, they also leave the area after a while.
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An how can you vector the course of freighters from a random location of the system? You must encounter them first(maybe the Shivans can do it with their advantaged technology)! The Shivans simply decided to leave a survivor, they were sure of the consequences. Maybe...they always do this way.
You have to be in sensor range when it jumps out, and that's about all it takes for tracking (and hte knowledge on how to track trough subspace, and we know shivans allready know that.)
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Riveria was probably making active sensor sweeps, and we know it was using its comms; it would have been relatively easy to locate then. The Repulse had probably tamped down its emissions as much as it could, running passive sensors and low-power or line-of-sight directional comms. It's a matter of how much energy you're putting out into space.
Riveria had no reason to hide, and plenty of reason not to: being a fixed installation, that has been in place for some time presumably, there are no odds in attempting to hide as everyone and their dog in the system would probably have known where to find it. Therefore it would have adopted the option of running all its active sensors to create an electronic bubble around it anyone can see (giving away information most of them probably already had) but the entering of which can be dangerous.
The Repulse, on the other hand, can move, and therefore you really do have to actually look for it. Therefore adopting a silent-running approach is a viable tactic because it doesn't have to be anywhere. It's the same reason why warships at sea sometimes opt not to run their radars, but land bases always do.
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Note that Riviera managed to pick up the Shivan fighters, even though they were semi-stealthy to the sensors on GTA (and probably PVN) fighter/bomber craft until the sensors were re-calibrated.
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Probably simply cause they're more powerful than the ones a fighter/bomber can carry. Is it ever said that capships can't pick them up?
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To be fair Riviera detected unknown ships JUNMPING IN - the opening of subspace vortexes. The image changes as soon as the 6 contacts jump in so we don't know if sensors managed to keep a lock (of if the red dots dissapeared after that or started flicking in and out as they do for the player in his first encounter with the shivans)
You as a player had no problem detecting ships jumping in - but after thy were in you couldn't target them, alltough your sensors showed something was there.
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Riveria was probably making active sensor sweeps, and we know it was using its comms; it would have been relatively easy to locate then. The Repulse had probably tamped down its emissions as much as it could, running passive sensors and low-power or line-of-sight directional comms. It's a matter of how much energy you're putting out into space.
Riveria had no reason to hide, and plenty of reason not to: being a fixed installation, that has been in place for some time presumably, there are no odds in attempting to hide as everyone and their dog in the system would probably have known where to find it. Therefore it would have adopted the option of running all its active sensors to create an electronic bubble around it anyone can see (giving away information most of them probably already had) but the entering of which can be dangerous.
The Repulse, on the other hand, can move, and therefore you really do have to actually look for it. Therefore adopting a silent-running approach is a viable tactic because it doesn't have to be anywhere. It's the same reason why warships at sea sometimes opt not to run their radars, but land bases always do.
The real difference is that the Repulse can move. It probably shut down non essential systems, praobably. We can't give it for sure. The briefing of "Feint! Parry! Riposte!" gives the impression of a Hide and Seek game while it could be normal. Do we have other examples? The Ravana was in the nebula, NTF ships at the end of the rebellion were moving to Gamma Draconis(while the Repulse was supposed to remain in Epsilon Pegasi)...and the NTF got suspicious when the Vasudans attacked the Iceni in "Rebels&Renegades", they didn't accept a fast detection of the Iceni as something possible. That episode is enough to demonstrate that jamming systems aren't needed.
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But what does that have to do with anything?
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Did you know that you can actually detect Shivies on the Plato mission if you alt-shift-J or something to target what your target's targeting.
Check out the Plato. But not like it does anything special to be honest.
And this is kinda irrelevant but the what was the Aten's name again - the Taurus right, actually managed to kill off the Shivan fighters that were attacking it. And I did NOT use cheats!
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:wtf: Should be impossible... something's not right.
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But it's maybe a glitch. One in a million I think. ;)
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Definately a glitch. The Aten is a peice of c*** that can't kill even unshielded fighters in FS1.
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Don't hesitate to write CRAP, as the Aten deserves it.
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Now, now..Let's not be hasty... It does have 5-6 turrets that can't hit a broad side of a barn. :D
Every played some of the FS1 campaigns? Even without shields it's not much of a threat.
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By saying that you're giving for sure that NTF ships turned out non essential systems when they moved to they rallying positions.
Sorry, Dave, there seems to be an error in your judgment.
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I dunno, in the mission in FS1 where you capture that godawful Aten (to be foiled by the Taranis) It, coupled with the fighters can be a pain the External Rectal Ejection Valve.
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Are yo usure you didn't have some uber-Aten mod turned on? Coause it's the weakest cruiser...ever.
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yep the aten is pretty much useless. That thing wouldn be able to ake out even an bommber with the manouverabilaty of a snail let alone anithing else.
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Hear than Snail? Even you could beat up an Aten :lol:
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In Fs1, before you have shields, the Aten can be your worst nightmare . . . especially the two Avenger turrets and not to mention your extraordinarily poor loadout . . . you can't even knock a single turret out . . . cry . . . :blah:
But now with shields - SMIRK!! :D
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well even without shields i foun that i can pretty muich do circles around the Aten without the fear of getting blown away if im smart enough and sober ! :P
However there is the fact that vasudans seem to buil more Sobeks then they do freaking cruisers ! I mean those things are everywhere in the game and they are pretty good too. In fact they are the second best corvette in game after they deimos . However i do consider them more powerfull from an offesive point of view simply because they have better beams. But the deimos wins because it is and overall better corvette with scary aaaf defences.
As for detectin shivies hell i seem to remember getting a kill or something one one of them even before i could detect them because i used to just pint and shoot no sophisticated targeting sistems.
As for the vasudan cruiser well they would be more efetive if they had some sort of rapid fire blob turrets . Sure they would be better off with beams but then again lets not ruin a perfectly crappy piece of engeniering here! Just mess around with it a bit! :D
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In Fs1, before you have shields, the Aten can be your worst nightmare . . . especially the two Avenger turrets and not to mention your extraordinarily poor loadout . . . you can't even knock a single turret out . . . cry . . . :blah:
I killed that Aten in the beginning of Phantoms (one of BR's minicampaigns) with Furies alone and with no help from those useless wingmen.
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Must be a pretty good pilot then, especially if you didn't have any shields and still had the strength to fight
after killing of the fighters and then the Aten or vice versa!! :D
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Pfft....piece of cake.. REAL men don't need no stinkin' shields. Real men don't need no stinkin' keysers.
Real men kill shivans en masse in an old duct-tape held Apollo, with only furies and ML-16. Real men s*** Helios bombs and shave with lightsabers. :cool:
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Pfft....piece of cake.. REAL men don't need no stinkin' shields. Real men don't need no stinkin' keysers.
Real men kill shivans en masse in an old duct-tape held Apollo, with only furies and ML-16. Real men s*** Helios bombs and shave with lightsabers. :cool:
Siggied. :lol:
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So I freely acknowledge you as a REAL man!! Lead the GTA's armies to victory!!
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To think that's the short version of the "real men" speech... :lol:
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There's more? Where?
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Pfft....piece of cake.. REAL men don't need no stinkin' shields. Real men don't need no stinkin' keysers. Real men don't need no stinkin' pimp fighters!
Real men kill shivans en masse in an old duct-tape held Apollo, with only furies and ML-16. Real men pi** plasma and s*** Helios bombs. They drink nitroglycerin in the morning and sleep on broken shivan skulls (on the rare occasion that they actually DO sleep, since real men don't need no stinking sleep! ).
Real men shave with lightsabers while dogfighting, and most importantly, REAL MEN don't reed stupid s*** like this!
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Real men die first.
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Real men die first.
That's signature worthy.
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If I only could find something signature worthy too, hmm...
Real men don't need Apollos, they punch the **** out of these Shivans.
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There are two things I won't change: socks.
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...uhh, socks? :eek2:
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Ho, someone needs to come in here and push a few buttons.
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Button pushed