Author Topic: warship nameplates?  (Read 4089 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
But remember that the original nameplate code you implemented was a decal system, and it was buggy up the wazoo.  I know; I had to go through and clean it out. :p


no, the origonal nameplate thing I did was to use the insg chunck as a nameplate on capships (like the origonal idea of this thread) I have never tried useing decals for anything other than impact decals despite the fact that I could.
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Offline Bobboau

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Originally posted by TrashMan

And I say no - texture replacement isn't good. Why? HT&L!

The less textures you are using, the better.


um that's on a per subobject basis, replaceing a texture doesn't change anything, and haveing an additional texture for the nameplate actualy makes this worse.
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Offline TrashMan

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I tought more textures = worse..

anyway..plan on finishing that little project of yours?
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Offline StratComm

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Well more textures are bad, but in comparison to a dynamic generation system and decals, the performance hit is negligable.  Don't go overboard, but one extra texture for a nameplate - if done correctly in the first place - is certainly not a problem.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Bobboau

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more textures is bad, replaceing a texture with another one leaves the same number of textures.
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Offline TrashMan

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Yes, but oin order to loook good on a ship, it has to be a somewhat bigget texture (and has to have a background).

Like the Orion nameplate - white letters on the bluish tiles background. It has to be a standard 256x256 texture.

A "logo" on the other hand is just small white letters  that can be stretched. The logo resolution and filesize would be far smaller then the texture itself... Just my two cents...

EDIT: What if you have 3 Orions in a mission? A different nameplate texture for each ship? Not to mention smalelr vessels (cruisers, corvettes)
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Offline Bobboau

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as I said the texture thing is on a per subobject basis, there is the same number of textures on each ship even though they are diferent textures. the penalty for useing a diferent texture on a diferent submodel (while present) is very small. it has nothing to do with the actual texture it has to do with the fact that all the polys with a certan texture get rendered at the same time and it's just about as slow to render one triangle as it is to render one thousand. further diferent submodels cannot be rendered at the same time so there is already the (main) penalty that is assosiated with multable textures. if you replace a texture with another one this changes nothing in terms of render times.

trust me, I made the renderer, I know.
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Offline TrashMan

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I suppose you do..

But let's look at it from another angle - implementation.

1. Texture replacement - you have to mak the nameplate texture. Let's look at the Orion one - it has the bluish terran pannels as a background. Anyone can make a nameplate, but in order to look good, it has to fit in perfectly with the other blue panels around (lines must come together or else it's gonna look like crap) - and to alignthem is hard and takes time.
You can allway circumvent by making the namepalte with a completely differnt background, but that will prolly turn out looking bad.
And for the matter of adding nameplates to older ships? Long process - one has to convert them to truespace, make and apply a new texture and save the model again. Tedious...

2. Logo's - you have to makea blank texture with nothing but the shipname. Since background is irreleveant, you don't have to worry about aligning it.
Old ships are simple edited in PCS.

2. Dyinamic names (with decals or whatever). For the shipname in FRED to be automaticly desplyed on the hull? Brilliant! Minimum fuss, no time lost on textures.
Of course, the place for the name would still have to be defined someway..prolly similar to the logo...


Of course
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Offline StratComm

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It's not nearly that simple.  You don't want logos because lighting doesn't effect them correctly.  You don't want decals because they are slow as dirt.  So all you can have is texture replacement of some form.  Period.  There are a lot of implimentation-specific issues as well that is important to remember (how does a name scale?  How does it follow geometry? I could go on) but that's not the point of this argument.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Goober5000

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Let's look at the work involved...

1) Texture replacement - something that's already there, already works, and works well.  And something that someone spent a good deal of time and effort working on to ensure that it would be used.

2) Anything else - more time, more effort, and more frustration to something that's only going to add 5% functionality, overall, to a 95% effective feature.  There's a concept called "good enough".  It lets people prioritize their time so they are able to add more of what the community wants without wasting time on what isn't good enough for one or two people.

EDIT: Thanks, StratComm...

 

Offline Kie99

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There's no need to convert to PCS to change textures, just use the POF-Editor in modelview
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Offline TrashMan

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More time, more effort, more frustration? For a better solution it's well worth it.
Besides, I never said decals specificly - there are surely better ways to do it..

And just becouse something allready there that doens't mean one should stop trying to make things better.
Anything that adds to the feel of the game and the ease of mdding in my eyes is incredibly important.

sure, someone made a effort, and I am thankfull, but that doesn't mean one has to stop.
"The propeller engine is good enugh for planes - someone mae an effort to do it. Making a jet engine is too much fuss.." :D



One has to conver to cob in order to add and align a new texture. A simple change won't do for a Deimos or Fenris...
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Offline karajorma

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I really wish people would realise that the programmers involved with the SCP have a finite amount of time and can't immediately fulfill every request. I'm currently waiting on Goober to make the team loadout changes I requested. These changes will add a huge amount of depth to missions in ways that you can't do now. He's also involved in adding newly requested SEXPs to the game that also allow you to do things you couldn't previously do.
 Bob is working on the new model format that allows translations and object animation. You can't do either now. He's also working the vertex shaders that will give us wonderful new features like bump mapping etc which are also lacking from the current game.

And you want them to stop this wonderful work to give us a new method of adding nameplates to ships (Something you can already do) because you can't be bothered to convert a ship back to a cob, change the texture on a couple of faces and reconvert?

Consider yourself lucky I'm not the programmer who would have to add this feature. I'd have told you to go f**k yourself long ago.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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I like the idea of dynamic name generation because it would make it much much easier to add nameplates - you only need one program - and reduce the amount of extra graphics required.

Ship names are one of those nice touches that aren't vital to the game, but help make the experience that much fuller. Texture replacement sounds all fine and good, but making a name tag for all the ships in a mission is probably not going to get done.

Not to mention the routines for writing text to a texture could be used for other things, e.g. a sign that provides game data. (Like, say, a scoreboard...) or used to prerender HUD text (If I understand correctly how the idea that was floating around to render parts of the hud to a texture would work.)

Finally, if a standardized name was used for the ship name plane, you could drop in any modern ship and immediately have a customized look. (When people talk about name plates for ships, they're usually thinking capital ships - how cool would it be to be able to have an individual nametag for fighters as well? Not likely at all with texture replacement.)

I think bumpmapping would be more useful than text-to-texture routines, but I think that levelmaking has been sorely disregarded, and it's coming around to stab the FS community in the back. The easier levels that look and play good are to make, the more there will be, and the more reason there'll be for people to get into Freespace.
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Offline karajorma

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Don't get me wrong WMCoolmon. Its a feature that would make things easier. And like you say it has lots of nice applications but speaking as a FREDder and modeller who is using the current system I'd far rather see you guys working on something more useful than this.
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Offline TrashMan

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
I really wish people would realise that the programmers involved with the SCP have a finite amount of time and can't immediately fulfill every request. I'm currently waiting on Goober to make the team loadout changes I requested. These changes will add a huge amount of depth to missions in ways that you can't do now. He's also involved in adding newly requested SEXPs to the game that also allow you to do things you couldn't previously do.
 Bob is working on the new model format that allows translations and object animation. You can't do either now. He's also working the vertex shaders that will give us wonderful new features like bump mapping etc which are also lacking from the current game.

And you want them to stop this wonderful work to give us a new method of adding nameplates to ships (Something you can already do) because you can't be bothered to convert a ship back to a cob, change the texture on a couple of faces and reconvert?

Consider yourself lucky I'm not the programmer who would have to add this feature. I'd have told you to go f**k yourself long ago.


What's your problem?  
I never told them DO IT NOW! DROP YOUR WORK!
If they can do it - excellent, if not - fine, another day...
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Offline Goober5000

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
What's your problem?
I might ask you the same thing.
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
And you want them to stop this wonderful work to give us a new method of adding nameplates to ships (Something you can already do) because you can't be bothered to convert a ship back to a cob, change the texture on a couple of faces and reconvert?

Consider yourself lucky I'm not the programmer who would have to add this feature. I'd have told you to go f**k yourself long ago.
What karajorma said.

I prefer to spend my finite reserve of patience actually solving code problems rather than putting up with these kinds of threads.

  

Offline karajorma

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I've got to agree. Only the fact that Goober himself hadn't closed it himself stopped me from closing it earlier.

Trashman : my problem has been your attitude on this thread. Maybe it wasn't deliberate but you've come over as pretty arrogant in the last few posts. For instance saying that its well worth doing even though many programmers have said that they don't consider it so. etc.

Remember that the SCP programmers don't work for you. Attempts like yours to change their minds don't tend to go down well.
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