Author Topic: The Wingmen/Enemy AI  (Read 3824 times)

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Offline BlackDove

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Anyone who knocks the AI in Freespace just doesn't know how to use it properly.

And that's more of a "knowing how to play the game" fault.

 
Ah, forgot one thing which I always thought as strange. The wingmen could this time also communicate with each other who will be firing which target, so that the firing is not concentrated to a single target (an overkill in most cases) unless instructed so. Of course player doesn't need to hear about this, or know about this. This would conserve missiles.

Mika

Target a hostile. See the little filled red circles next to its target box? Each red circle means one of your wingmen is attacking that target. This was a feature first implemented in an old FS1 patch.

While we're talking about subsystems, just remember one thing, according to the AI code (which the SCP team hasn't changed at all) any computer pilot firing at a subsystem has 100% accuracy. So C-3-4 can be useful, although in practice it's too tedious to bother with that exploit.

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Dang it! I never knew so many people would answer while I'm figure skating back to home through the 3 km long bicycle way. So I'll try to answer some questions and suggestions quickly today. I'm in a urgent good night sleep here.

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There was a command in FS1 and FS2 called "disarm my target", that's what it does (including blob turrets)

If I remember correctly, this is not prioritized in retail version - or then the wingmen never destroyed the most dangerous AAA-weapon for some reason. Anyways, the most important thing is that the command is single target related and the wingmen will fixate to that target until the most dangerous stuff has been blown up. Sure you could command it yourself to each wingmen, but that suddenly makes your fingers really dance on the keyboard. Besides, I usually don't have time to check through the capital ship cannons and AAA-weaponry if they have been destroyed. What I think would be of the lines: "You may freely engage and destroy any and all AAA-beams and flak cannons, but nothing else. Please make sure you each destroy a different target."

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How do you define "complete"? There have been completed releases already.

A version that has standardized FRED commands and the same functionality in every computer. I don't want to design a mission that relies on some OpenFRED-thing which doesn't appear the same like with every computer. Also, no glitches and bugs. How does this differ from the current release paths? Current releases tend to happen on a faster rate, while I have had difficulties to follow which things have been changed in which version, especially in Graphics department and in SEXP-lists. What I would like to see is a surely working version of the FSOpen that contains the basic commands that will be found in every version after it and those commands will function always exactly the same way. A building block version if you will.

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Anyone who knocks the AI in Freespace just doesn't know how to use it properly.

And that's more of a "knowing how to play the game" fault.

Here I'm already thinking of RE-writing a mission (dang Windows XP reinstallation and dang nuclear1 and Mongoose) that will surely change that attitude. Also, check Falcon 4.0 AI for a reference of almost believeable behaving airplanes. Of course, FreeSpace is faster paced, but here computer doesn't need to calculate turn rates and energies in dogfight. Also, what is wrong with the missile evasion of the wingmen?

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Target a hostile. See the little filled red circles next to its target box? Each red circle means one of your wingmen is attacking that target. This was a feature first implemented in an old FS1 patch.

While we're talking about subsystems, just remember one thing, according to the AI code (which the SCP team hasn't changed at all) any computer pilot firing at a subsystem has 100% accuracy. So C-3-4 can be useful, although in practice it's too tedious to bother with that exploit.

But this is not what I tried to say! I don't want to specifically command every ship under my command to engage a different enemy. They could do it automatically, maybe even informing player (chatter before the real battle, but important with Trebuchet scenarios) which one which wingman will take - and also informing player when they change targets after the last one was destroyed or priorities change (important while dogfighting). Some of the wingmen casualities are related to the player not being able to follow their actions while himself engaged.

Also, some prescribed attack patterns could be useful wingmen commands, like "Launch longest range missiles and return formation", Bracket - type tricks would be nice of course with the additional option for dragging the enemy so that you can get a shot to its tail. Also a quick command for immediate maximum turn rate turn to up/down/left/right to a specific wingman would be useful. Like they tell you there's someone behind you (would it be difficult to add a best possible direction on the message to counter the enemy?), you could also effect them to not get shot down so easily with these, while getting the enemy in your crosshairs.

Would it be possible for wingmen to actually keep in pace with Alpha 1 if he decides to direct all energy to engines and use the afterburner?

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 
Let me tell you know that not many people even care about what their wingmen are doing. I like your suggestions, but FreeSpace isn't meant to be a tactical simulation, and unless you can convince the SCP team otherwise, they're not going to spend their time on features that one or two people want. The most common wingmen command is "C-3-9", and not many people care about tactics beyond that, even if they could make their job much easier by just putting a little thought into the game.

If you want some sophisticated air-to-air tactics, I suggest Falcon 4.0. That game has most of the features you're asking for. 

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Would it be possible for wingmen to actually keep in pace with Alpha 1 if he decides to direct all energy to engines and use the afterburner?

Now that last feature I can really agree with. Again, it was never implemented because noone made it a priority. If you want your wingmen to use burners, just tell them to attack something in the general direction of where you want them to go and they'll hit burners.

 

Offline Retsof

  • 210
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I have a small complaint.  Whenever I tell my fellow bombers to disarm or dissable an enemy, they don't use their bombs.  I remember something in the FS1 training mission about them trying not to destroy the ship, but I just want them to make it easier to destroy, which includes them softening it up with their bombs.  (Tries to think of a ending.)  Umm... thats all.
:::PROUD VASUDAN RIGHTS SUPPORTER:::

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I can't help but hear a shotgun cocking with this.

 

Offline karajorma

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A version that has standardized FRED commands and the same functionality in every computer. I don't want to design a mission that relies on some OpenFRED-thing which doesn't appear the same like with every computer. Also, no glitches and bugs.

If you want no glitches or bugs give up on modding right now. FS2 Retail had plenty of both.

As for standardised versions. 3.6.9 has been the standard version for more than a year now. Missions made on 3.6.9 should work absolutely the same on 3.6.10. Backwards compatibility has always been a big feature of FSO and there are only a few occasions where that has actually been broken recently.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Regarding FS2 bugs and glitches, the worst were commands progressing to all friendly ships around, stupid wingmen and then there were some issues with FRED, you could make it crash if you did certain steps which I have forgotten. Other game play affecting bugs I didn't encounter or simply don't remember them. Would the SCP do well when compared to that? Also to nickpick, I have never modded FS2 and never will. I construct missions with FRED.

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Let me tell you know that not many people even care about what their wingmen are doing. I like your suggestions, but FreeSpace isn't meant to be a tactical simulation, and unless you can convince the SCP team otherwise, they're not going to spend their time on features that one or two people want. The most common wingmen command is "C-3-9", and not many people care about tactics beyond that, even if they could make their job much easier by just putting a little thought into the game.

If you want some sophisticated air-to-air tactics, I suggest Falcon 4.0. That game has most of the features you're asking for.

I already have Falcon 4.0. But I don't want FS to feel like it. Compared to that, the overall impression of FS2 is that you are a future's rifleman, serving in space, you personally being the group leader. I think there are several nice foot soldier's tactics that could be programmed to the AI behavior. Note that the Bracket (Flanking) and Drag and Bag have their soldier's equivalents also. Generally I feel that it is the basic ground war tactics that could make a huge difference in how the game plays. However, the thing about real world is that if you suffer 50 % losses, your unit is then considered destroyed and cannot complete the strategical or tactical objective, and will probably be joined to some other unit. Or then wait for replacements.

Also, think about the Perseus interceptor. I always thought it quite strange fighter, since it actually doesn't happen to have any real intercepting capabilities, especially if the wingmen cannot launch Trebuchets. Then the Perseus is more like the last line of defence of the carrier group, while actually interceptors should be the first line of defence, if you follow real world tactics. The real interceptor would be the Ares or Erinyes fighter, both have capacity to lob enough missiles to suppress anything. Whether this is relevant to FS2, you and SCP team can decide. These are just questions and suggestions.

Oh, one more thing about flak. Do the wingmen realise that they can go around the flak or AAA-beam perimeter, preferably at the outer radius? If they are not in the radius, could it be possible to program them analyze the risk of going through the perimeter, rather than circling around it? Or at least fly unpredictably if they are attacked by flak?

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Wait, so you haven't tried FSOpen at all? Because you're afraid it'll be buggy?

It takes a little effort to get set up, but it's always performed beautifully for me. If there are troubles, it's likely the fault of the MediaVPs or mods rather than FSOpen itself.

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
The reason I haven't tried FSOpen is the same reason I haven't tried Linux. I cannot be bothered to find all the necessary things to make it useful. And if you happen to be one of those unlucky persons who will find trouble with the updates, lots of time will be wasted trying to make something work... and free time is a luxury for me at least. And besides, I have really lost count on how many models of which ship have been created at which polycount and where I could find them. The problem with VPs, does that include the retail Media.vp?

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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In the time it took to make all these posts you could have started the install, left and did what you needed to do, and come back and tried it for yourself. 

Yes there are bugs but there were bugs in retail.  At least now you get an error message instead of a crash to desktop with no explanation.  You can usually work around those bugs once you run into them. 

Retail VPs and MediaVPs are 2 separate things.  The retail VPs are included but they are just that the retail ones.  You can easily switch back and forth between versions and mods with the launcher.
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

  

Offline General Battuta

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I had it working fine with just one download, y'know.

And I find the new downloads remarkably easy to work with.