Author Topic: And the fun starts again  (Read 3383 times)

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Offline Gank

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No its Belgium.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Gank

News flash for you mate, in Kosovo over 700 armoured vehicles were claimed killed by US led forces using smart munitions, guess how many wrecks the ground troops found: 2 dozen. If a pilot at a couple of thousand feet up cant tell the difference between a tank and a yugo with a drainpipe sticking out of its windscreen how the **** are they going to be able to tell the difference between an insurgent and some poor pricks running for cover?

Anyways not to piss on your parade but from what I can see the main bombardment is artillery, which is neither gps or laser guided.


To be fair, at least in Kosovo they had the (tenuous) excuse that the bombers were restricted to high-altitude, low-accuracy bombing because the US were scared of casualties from Yugoslav AA.  There's not even the excuse in this case.

Quote
Originally posted by Gank

Actually the belgians are.


if only...

 

Offline Rictor

  • Murdered by Brazilian Psychopath
  • 29
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3989639.stm
Quote
The enemy has got a face. He's called Satan. He lives in Falluja. And we're going to destroy him


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/09/wirq109.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/09/ixnewstop.htm
Quote
"Yeah," he yelled. "Battle Damage Assessment - nothing. Building's gone. I got my kills, I'm coming down. I just love my job."
...
Lt Jack Farley, a US Marines officer, sauntered over to compare notes with the Phantoms. "You guys get to do all the fun stuff," he said. "It's like a video game. We've taken small arms fire here all day. It just sounds like popcorn going off."
« Last Edit: November 09, 2004, 07:25:22 am by 644 »

 

Offline 01010

  • 26
SATAN HAS A FACE????
What frequency are you getting? Is it noise or sweet sweet music? - Refused - Liberation Frequency.

 

Offline Gank

  • 27
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
To be fair, at least in Kosovo they had the (tenuous) excuse that the bombers were restricted to high-altitude, low-accuracy bombing because the US were scared of casualties from Yugoslav AA.  There's not even the excuse in this case.


Well those 4,000 shoulder launched SAMs the US recently announced were unaccounted for in Iraq might constitute an excuse for not flying too low. Anyways this video should give an idea of the US's targeting in Fallujah
http://www.channel4.com/news/2004/10/week_2/07_iraq.html

 

Offline redmenace

  • 211
Quote

US military responds to Fallujah video  
 Iraq  
 
Published: 07-Oct-2004
By: Alex Thomson  
 
It's an incident which seems to epitomise the brutal nature of modern urban warfare.  
 
An American fighter pilot using the most advanced and lethal technology to attack a group of Iraqis in a street in Fallujah all caught on the aircraft's own camera and shown on Channel 4 News earlier this week.

Now the Pentagon has given us their version of the precise circumstances of the attack - as seen in the images shown.

F16 : “I got numerous individuals on the road. Do you want me to take those out?”

Reply: “Take ‘em out”

We showed cockpit video of an American F16 jet bombing a crowd of people on a street in Fallujah, west of Baghdad. We now know the date - Saturday April 10th.

F16 : “Ten seconds”

Reply: “Roger”

Overnight, this programme received from Baghdad the official US military version of what happened.

It says US Marines were pinned down by fighting somewhere towards the bottom of this wide, empty street.

F16 : “Aw, dude”

A ground commander saw this crowd come out along the road and fire at the Marines.

That commander had already asked an F16 pilot overhead to target a building from where insurgents had fired.

So when the crowd appeared and the pilot asked what to do, the ground commander knew the pilot was looking at the same hostile crowd as he was and could give the order to bomb them immediately.

"As the F-16 aimed on the building, the pilot saw a group of people come running out of the building, around the corner, and towards the Marine unit under fire. When the pilot queried about the group, the JTAC cleared him to engage...those were the people shooting at the Marines"

Lt Col Steven Boylan, Director, Combined Press Information Center, Baghdad

That's what happened, he says, to the best of our knowledge. The trouble is, the available evidence doesn’t show this.

When you look at the video, the pilot didn’t see people coming out of the building.

He couldn't have done - his monitor only shows a crowd emerging onto the main road from a side street.

Late this afternoon the Pentagon e-mailed saying both pilot and ground controller did see what was going on before this brief video clip.

But there's a bigger problem. Since when do urban fighters run in a crowd whilst firing, in an open area with no cover?

The US military is asking the world to believe that is just what happened here.

We've shown this video to two leading defence experts in London - neither accepts that this crowd is behaving as an offensive military force.

Those who were in Fallujah at the time say if insurgents had behaved like this it would be an act of mass suicide.

"They know themselves they have simple weapons. So actually they use these by hiding in places, fighting or firing behind walls and trying to stand between the houses. They never ever put themselves in front of the Americans because they know that the Americans have big military forces"

Dr Salem Ismael, Doctors for Iraqi Society

When we asked the US military in Baghdad if they could explain this, Lt Col Boylan emailed:

"I cannot give any explanation...we see people making what we would consider to be tactical errors all the time"

From the Pentagon to Baghdad the US military say they're trying to get us interviews, radio traffic or documents to back up their story.

This photo was taken outside Fallujah at the time - people fleeing the city to escape the fighting.

And Iraqis in Fallujah tell us that crowd on Julan Steet that day were innocent civilians. They too are searching for their proof.  

Since most will watch the video and not read...
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
              -Frederic Bastiat

 

Offline vyper

  • 210
  • The Sexy Scotsman
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline ionia23

  • 26
  • "YES, I did finally see 'The Matrix' 12 years late
People act surprised when they find out war is pretty bloody.
"Why does it want me to say my name?"

 

Offline vyper

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  • The Sexy Scotsman
No they get pissed off when it's fought on a false premise.

[q]
Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before


Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before


My hands are tied
The billions shift from side to side
And the wars go on with brainwashed pride
For the love of God and our human rights
And all these things are swept aside
By bloody hands time can't deny
And are washed away by your genocide
And history hides the lies of our civil wars


D'you wear a black armband
When they shot the man
Who said "Peace could last forever"
And in my first memories
They shot Kennedy
I went numb when I learned to see
So I never fell for Vietnam
We got the wall of D.C. to remind us all
That you can't trust freedom
When it's not in your hands
When everybody's fightin'
For their promised land


And
I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war


Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more


My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars


"We practice selective annihilation of mayors
And government officials
For example to create a vacuum
Then we fill that vacuum
As popular war advances
Peace is closer" **


I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
And I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war
I don't need one more war


I don't need one more war
Whaz so civil 'bout war anyway
[/q]

It carries more power with a Guns N' Roses riff playing behind it.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline ionia23

  • 26
  • "YES, I did finally see 'The Matrix' 12 years late
Funny thing though, all the complaining in the world isn't going to stop it.   Not by a long shot.
"Why does it want me to say my name?"

 
Lets think about something else, it could be worse.

We could be blindly bombing targets from a B-17 with little accuracy, and causing mass damage around the target. I didn't see everyone complaining that in order to hit 1 target we sent 20 bombers all loaded down with tons of bombs that would, at least, miss by a few yards, and some bombs may venture off even further.

We dont want to run a political war here. If we do that, we become weak, and when we become weak it takes longer to get the job done. War is war. People get caught in the crossfire, people die, war sucks, its bloody, and its the last resort in anyone's arsenal. However, we do what we have to do to get it done, and once its done then its done. The suffering gets to end until someone else decides to take up arms again.

War sucks, but deal with it.

 

Offline aldo_14

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  • 213
Quote
Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
Lets think about something else, it could be worse.

We could be blindly bombing targets from a B-17 with little accuracy, and causing mass damage around the target. I didn't see everyone complaining that in order to hit 1 target we sent 20 bombers all loaded down with tons of bombs that would, at least, miss by a few yards, and some bombs may venture off even further.

We dont want to run a political war here. If we do that, we become weak, and when we become weak it takes longer to get the job done. War is war. People get caught in the crossfire, people die, war sucks, its bloody, and its the last resort in anyone's arsenal. However, we do what we have to do to get it done, and once its done then its done. The suffering gets to end until someone else decides to take up arms again.

War sucks, but deal with it.


All wars are political.  They are started, dictated and eventually ended by politicians.  And when your avowed aim is a 'war against terror', it can;t get more political.  Because a war on terror, a war for 'hearts and minds', cannot be won through military force.

And this - Fallujah, Iraq, et al - was not a last resort.  The last resort comes when there is a clear, immenent threat of a danger which is proportionate to the effect of the war or action.  There was no such threat, be it from Iraq pre-war, or Fallujah at the present.

'It could be worse' is no way to run or decide anything.  The way to run anything, is to ask 'how could it be done better?'

 
Then let me remind you, aldo, there is no better way to run a war. It is "do what needs to be done to win at the most effective way" and it means thinking on your feet. You play as you go, and you cant change what you have done.

When I say political war, I mean like Vietnam, where the government told you where to bomb, when to do it, and with how many planes, and you couldnt let the generals take charge. In WWII, they just said "Here's a couple hundred thousand troops, go kill some Nazi's and report in."

Now that war has become more effective, more controlled, and less courageous, people want to ***** about the other things.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
Then let me remind you, aldo, there is no better way to run a war. It is "do what needs to be done to win at the most effective way" and it means thinking on your feet. You play as you go, and you cant change what you have done.

When I say political war, I mean like Vietnam, where the government told you where to bomb, when to do it, and with how many planes, and you couldnt let the generals take charge. In WWII, they just said "Here's a couple hundred thousand troops, go kill some Nazi's and report in."

Now that war has become more effective, more controlled, and less courageous, people want to ***** about the other things.


In WW2, it was a total war.  In case you didn't notice, the Axis wanted to conquer all of Europe, invaded Africa, and had a masterplan for genocide.  Defeat would have meant, literally, the end of european civillisation into god knows what else.  And it was fought at a time when technology only allowed mass bombings, flattening cities, et al.

Vietnam is a very close parallel to Iraq - it was fighting a non-conventional enemy, and ended because of apalling pictures of civillian casualties.  But Iraq is even more 'political' than 'nam ever was;  there is no enemy 'power' being engaged to justify it, just a rag tag army and now a rag tag bunch of rebels and terrorists.  

There is no 'great battle versus evil' that can be won by this war - everyone with an ounce of sense can see that the supposed war on terrorism can't be won with the military, and sure as hell not by attacking Iraq.

So you do what - flatten Fallujah, maybe kill a few thousand rebels.  And the lasting consequence is what?  250,000 people left homeless, an ever more furious Arab world (and more people joining the insurgency or supporting terrorism), and elections which lose their credibility with every day the violence continues.  And the insurgency doesn;t end, it just shifts.  We've already seen the attacks in Kirkuk and Baghdad; guerillas don't fight for territory.

This is not even a war, it's an occupation.  You can't win an occupation by flattening the resistance - it didn't even work for the Nazis, and they went to horrific lengths (mass executions, burning entire towns) to silence resistance.  

You may say there is more cause to resist Nazi occupation than American - which is fair - but Iraqis switch on their TV (those that have power and whose Tv wasn't looted from them), and see thousands of innocent civillians being pounded by US occupying forces, mosques being stormed, hospitals bombed, etc - and what do they think of their liberators?

 

Offline Rictor

  • Murdered by Brazilian Psychopath
  • 29
TinCan, its funny how those who say things like "war in tough, deal with it" and "people gettng caught in a crossfire is inevitable" and "war sucks, but it needs to be done" have never actually experienced a war.

The US has no idea, no idea whatsoever what war means, because the US people have never been under attack, at least not in the past 200 or so years. Thats why you're such warmongers, because you have no idea in the world about the suffering it causes. You think that a few thousand soldiers dying is bad? How about a few hundred thousand civilians, defenceless innocents whonever chose to be there, unlike soldiers. How about a generation of infants, traumatized by things no child should experience. How about whole cities reduced to rubble, and snipers roaming the streets.

You have no idea about war, and thankfully neither do I. But don't you dare talk about war, and talk about concepts you can't even begin to imagine. Until you've had your country invaded, the population terrorized, your cites burned, your family shot down in the streets, your kids living under cnstant bombardment, you have no right.

 

Offline aldo_14

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  • 213
Quote
Originally posted by 01010
SATAN HAS A FACE????


Not once the glorious leader Dubya has SMOTE HIM with the armies of the wo...America!  Yee-haw!

etc.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

  • 8D
  • 26
  • Intelligent Dasein
The Hollow Men
TS Eliot
 

Mistah Kurtz - he dead.
A penny for the Guy!



I

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpieces filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rat's feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar.

Shape without form, shade without color,
Paralyzed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us - if at all - not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.


II

Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
In death's dream kingdom
These do not appear:
There, the eyes are
Sunlight on a broken column
There, is a tree swinging
And voices are
In the wind's singing
More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.

Let me be no nearer
In death's dream kingdom
Let me also wear
Such deliberate disguises
Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves
In a field
Behaving as the wind behaves
No nearer-

Not that final meeting
In the twilight kingdom.


III

This is the dead land
This is the cactus land
Here the stone images
Are raised, here they receive
The supplication of a dead man's hand
Under the twinkle of a fading star.

Is it like this
In death's other kingdom
Waking alone
At the hour when we are
Trembling with tenderness
Lips that would kiss
Form prayers to broken stone.


IV

The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdom.
In the last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death's twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.


V

Here we go round the prickly pear
Prickly pear prickly pear
Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o'clock in the morning.

Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow

     For Thine is the Kingdom

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
    Life is very long

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
     For Thine is the Kingdom

For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but with a whimper.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline aldo_14

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  • 213
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!-An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,-
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
TinCan, its funny how those who say things like "war in tough, deal with it" and "people gettng caught in a crossfire is inevitable" and "war sucks, but it needs to be done" have never actually experienced a war.

The US has no idea, no idea whatsoever what war means, because the US people have never been under attack, at least not in the past 200 or so years. Thats why you're such warmongers, because you have no idea in the world about the suffering it causes. You think that a few thousand soldiers dying is bad? How about a few hundred thousand civilians, defenceless innocents whonever chose to be there, unlike soldiers. How about a generation of infants, traumatized by things no child should experience. How about whole cities reduced to rubble, and snipers roaming the streets.

You have no idea about war, and thankfully neither do I. But don't you dare talk about war, and talk about concepts you can't even begin to imagine. Until you've had your country invaded, the population terrorized, your cites burned, your family shot down in the streets, your kids living under cnstant bombardment, you have no right.


Not under attack in the past 200 years? America hasnt even EXISTED for the full 200 years. Our primary attack that started us was back in WWII when the Japs invaded Pear Harbor. Thats an attack. It may not be in the mainland, but its an attack nonetheless. Second, we have 9/11. We are talking extemely populated cities having planes flown into the World[/I] Trade Center. Thats an attack. Its a terrorist attack, but its still an attack.

So, we decided we've had enough. We go out, and make a checklist of things to be done. Lets see, kill Al Quida in Afghanistan, check. Eliminate terrorists in Iraq? In progress. They dont necessarily have to be Al Quida to be targets. Hint the name, "war on terror" and not "War on Al Quida" or "War on Weapons of Mass Destruction". No, its "War on Terror" (terror being short for Terrorist, in case the children forgot)

But we have seen real war. We have seen the year-long Gulf War (Im speaking of when I was alive) and the headlines it brought to news:

"Sadaam invades Kuwait"

We went it, took them out, and forced them back to their country in March 3, 1991. After that we got Clinton chucking missles at Iraq. (not really a war, but an attack)

So, when I say get over it, I mean people are GOING to die. There isnt a way to stop that, especially since its war. If you expect no one to get hurt during war time, you are ignorant. **** happens, and there is nothing we can do to stop the bullets from flying by sitting at our computer debating about it. The end.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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  • Intelligent Dasein
Quote
Lets see, kill Al Quida in Afghanistan, check.

No, no check. The campaign in Afghanistan did not eliminate Al Quaeda, or the Taliban for that matter, especially after our attention was redirected to Iraq. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz had no intention of finishing Afghanistan if they didn't have to.

Quote
So, when I say get over it, I mean people are GOING to die. There isnt a way to stop that, especially since its war. If you expect no one to get hurt during war time, you are ignorant. **** happens, and there is nothing we can do to stop the bullets from flying by sitting at our computer debating about it. The end.

But you're missing the point. War only happens because someone wants it to happen. And the only way that people can be so casually accepting of the most horrific, nightmarish, self-shattering phenomenon of human existence is if they themselves have not experienced it. Thus, it is a vicious cycle.

**** didn't just "happen;" America wanted this bloodshed. Nobody brought Iraq to us.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel