[an0n]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20050111/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_dc&printer

'They were torturing us as though it was theater for them,' he said, as the prosecution wound up its case against [Charles A. Graner] on assault, dereliction of duty and other charges... 'I was extremely emotional because (even) Saddam didn't do this to us.'

[Corsair]

I can't wait to hear what Graner has to say.

[Rictor]

Here's what he had to say

[Liberator]

I will not allow you to spin this, you twit.  For those reading this thread that didn't look at the article, this is a rather poor attempt to make a blanket acusation on the American Military based on testimony from one of the trials associated with the Abu-Grahib atrocity.  Make no mistake, that was an atrocity, no one is denying that.  But I will not allow this kind of foolishness to go on while I'm around.

Abu-Grahib was wrong, you know it, I know it.  However the actions of a few deviants cannot reflect on as diverse a body as the US military.

[Rand al Thor]

Please. Don't believe it was the actions of a few grunts who decided they'd have some fun. They did it because it was accepted treatment at the jail. Because it was military policy even if not directly ordered.

To get information harsh methods are sometimes needed but you have to pay the price for those actions, not blame it on some mindless automatons.

[Liberator]

Harsh methods...you do know what the military defines as acceptable interrogation techniques don't you?  Sleep depravation, the playing of loud music to disrupt concetration as well as other non-violent, but very effective methods for weakening the will so they won't be able to lie effectively.  Harsh methods do not involve widespread humiliation of detainees.

[vyper]

They did it because most untrained human beings become sadistic ****s when given this kind of authority of other people.

Simply put this IS the US Army's fault for putting these people in charge of the prison (and don't tell me the Army doesn't know about the psychology of war)

[Gank]

Umm libby, the armys own report found abuse was widespread and ordered from the top down.  
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm
Its you who's spinning it you twat.

[kode]

Originally posted by Gank
Umm libby, the armys own report found abuse was widespread and ordered from the top down.  
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm
Its you who's spinning it you twat.

leave lib be. he's better off in his own little alternate reality. if only he could be quiet about it...

[Rictor]

Liberator, do you honestly believe that by some coincidence, those cases of torture which were reported account for 100% of all torture by US troops? Don't you think thats a bit unlikely? Don't you think that it is reasonable to expect that, given the limited scope of the investigation and natural willingness to hide one's crimes, the reported abuses account for only a small percentager of those that have occured and continue to occur inside US prisons?

Why do you think that military prisons are created in places like Diego Garcia and Jordan, where they are outside the reach of US law? Is that just a coincidence??

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Rictor
Liberator, do you honestly believe that by some coincidence, those cases of torture which were reported account for 100% of all torture by US troops?

I have to.  

If I don't then the Army becomes a bunch of reprobates and cretins who aren't worthy of the responsibility we have placed with them.

I have to believe that the training, the unending hours of training, that those people go through weeds out 99.9% of the bad eggs or else the members of the military, and by extension their deeds, are worthless.

They arent' perfect, but I HAVE to believe that they are the absolute best that my country has to offer or what's the point.

[Gank]

Well, you could always try to improve the army.

[Unknown Target]

Originally posted by Liberator

If I don't then the Army becomes a bunch of reprobates and cretins who aren't worthy of the responsibility we have placed with them.
 

If you close your eyes, the bad things don't go away. They just sneak up on you.

[Rictor]

So you have to believe in something that appears to be highly unlikely, because the alternative is too scary to face? Well, I can see where you're coming from, but I can't say I agree. The truth is that the Army is  a far cry from the idealistic entity that some (maybe most?) Americans believe it to be.

[Gank]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/527479.html

[Genryu]

I'd said the point is the one many veteran are trying to make : see http://www.hackworth.com/ for exemple. As in, the training the Army currently use DON'T weed out the reprobats and cretins. That being said, I seriously doubt that you believing that the Army is not doing this will improve matter on the fields

[Gank]

Anyone read the men who stare at goats? Has some rather interesting information on US military intelligence.

btw Hackworth was the one who originally broke the torture story,

[kode]

Originally posted by Unknown Target



If you close your eyes, the bad things don't go away. They just sneak up on you.

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
-Aldous Huxley

[Genryu]

While I do not agree with everything Hackworth said/wrote, I find his site a very good source of non-bised information about the US Army. Won't hesitate to bash some people, but make known the good things the Army does too.

[Unknown Target]

The US army, like the US, is a mixed bag. It's the best out there, but it's far, far from perfect, and could be benefited greatly from some very simple reforms.