[aldo_14]

I kind of suspect the corvette class was intended to eventually replace the cruisers althogether, myself, although that'd be a long term job.  IMO the lack of any attempt to replace the aborted Aeolus would tend to indicate that.

[TrashMan]

Aeolus is a defective ship. The weak hull plating makes it more or less useless, but what makes it an overkill of uselessness is the fact that its turrets are all more or less easy to take down, considering they're concentrated closely on any array you might be facing.

The ship itself needs cover, otherwise anyone who knows anything is just going to disarm it and then nuke it. That makes the cargo depot easy to scan. Easily disarmable.

However, when an Aeolus is "guarding" a bigger ship (which is in effect guarding the Aeolus, but then it turns into a symbiotic relationship), even if it's just the Deimos going with one hand in hand, then it makes a good addition to various defence strategies.

Deimos however is vastly superior if only for the hull plating, size and arrangment of turrets.

(and actually, I value Fenris' bastard brother Leviathan far more than an Aeolus).

Weak hull plating? For a cruiser, it's armor is awensome.

And you really can't do comparison between ship classes that way. A Corvette has more HP and better anti-cap weapons becouse it's bigger AND it's a differnt class of ship.

To evaluate the Aeolus, you must compare it with other cruisers in-game.

[BlackDove]

No, I must compare it with all the classes and determine its function as a member of its class and its complement to the rest of the spectrum.

Aeolus serves a purpose, but not a very good one. De-fe-ctive.

[Goober5000]

Aeolus is a defective ship. The weak hull plating makes it more or less useless, but what makes it an overkill of uselessness is the fact that its turrets are all more or less easy to take down, considering they're concentrated closely on any array you might be facing.

The ship itself needs cover, otherwise anyone who knows anything is just going to disarm it and then nuke it. That makes the cargo depot easy to scan. Easily disarmable.

And how are you supposed to disarm it if you don't have Maxims or Trebuchets?  They don't just hand those out.

[BlackDove]

Prometheus S and Kayser work well, especially the prometheus S, range being 1400.

With such a low threshold even the Morningstar works given time IIRC.

Me? All I need are two banks of Subach and a bank of Tempest. Anything more is overkill.

And that's assuming I'm soloing the thing. With a full four fighter wing, I can just sit on my ass and have them dish out the pain with their Subach's and hornets/harpoons/tornadoes.

I hope they hand those out.

Unless you want me to do it with a PromR. Then I admit, the Aeolus is a "decent" challenge.

[Goober5000]

Oh, I forgot.  You're the one who thought playing Secrets Reborn on Insane was easy.

For purposes of comparison, that sort of pilot is most definitely an outlier.

[BlackDove]

Like I said, the dumb**** AI with the generally retarded weaponry will do the job. I don't think you need more than that to call something a piece of ****.

Also, what the hell are Secrets Reborn?

[CP5670]

There are 22 official Aeolus cruisers in FS2, 13 of which are destroyed by the time the campaign ends. I just threw in some lame modification into the Aeolus tech description in my campaign's ships.tbl so I could use more in my missions:

"The GTC Aeolus is the first cruiser class produced by the RNI shipyards orbiting Laramis II. The original design was plagued by exorbitant manufacturing costs for its size and power, so production ended in early 2367 after only 24 Aeolus cruisers were constructed. Almost all of these were destroyed by the end of the Shivan incursion. A revision of the cruiser was introduced in 2368, with several small changes that dramatically lowered construction costs without any significant change in combat effectiveness, and was quickly put into mass-production. Aeolus cruisers have started to become an important part of modern Terran fleets, as they are excellent for guarding slow-moving fleet support convoys. Their flak and AAA turrets serve as marvelous deterrents to smaller craft and their twin anti-capital photon beams allow them to duel and defeat most other cruisers."

[NGTM-1R]

Disarming generally means getting in close with cannons, particularly in the context in which you choose to evaluate it as defective, Blackdove. Which, in the case of the Aeolus, amounts to suicide. So show me. Build the mission. I want to see a fighter wing, an average fighter wing, of AI pilots, do what you say they can. Without player input. At most give them a general disarm order.

Given: Corvettes were intended to be the primary offensive weapons.
Given: Cruisers were escort craft.
Given: A good percentage of the GTVA's destroyers are older models less well-equipped to defend themselves against fighter attack.
Given: The Leviathan does not in fact have the speed or manuverablity to react quickly to defend a convoy or larger ship.

The GTVA had a need for a ship such as the Aeolus. Their fault lay in not recognizing it for what it was. There are no bad ships, BlackDove. Only bad commanders.

[BlackDove]

There are 22 official Aeolus cruisers in FS2, 13 of which are destroyed by the time the campaign ends. I just threw in some lame modification into the Aeolus tech description in my campaign's ships.tbl so I could use more in my missions:

"The GTC Aeolus is the first cruiser class produced by the RNI shipyards orbiting Laramis II. The original design was plagued by exorbitant manufacturing costs for its size and power, so production ended in early 2367 after only 24 Aeolus cruisers were constructed. Almost all of these were destroyed by the end of the Shivan incursion. A revision of the cruiser was introduced in 2368, with several small changes that dramatically lowered construction costs without any significant change in combat effectiveness, and was quickly put into mass-production. Aeolus cruisers have started to become an important part of modern Terran fleets, as they are excellent for guarding slow-moving fleet support convoys. Their flak and AAA turrets serve as marvelous deterrents to smaller craft and their twin anti-capital photon beams allow them to duel and defeat most other cruisers."

Eeeeeeeeeeeexactly, but that's where it ends as well.

Don't get me wrong, the Aeolus is a fantastic tactical plant as far as escorting specific stuff goes, but that's where it all begins and ends. Not worth the production in the end if the costs are high.

By the way ngt, so many flaws in that post, taking it apart would make me seem sadistic. I'll pretend I didn't see it for your sake.

[Goober5000]

And that's assuming I'm soloing the thing. With a full four fighter wing, I can just sit on my ass and have them dish out the pain with their Subach's and hornets/harpoons/tornadoes.

Like I said, the dumb**** AI with the generally retarded weaponry will do the job. I don't think you need more than that to call something a piece of ****.

I'll thank you to check your facts next time before you post such demonstrably false assertions such as these.  I just FREDded up a simple mission with a wing of 4 Myrmidons armed with Subachs, Prometheus S's, Harpoons, and Hornets.  I gave them a Disarm order against a single Aeolus and sat back to watch the action.  The Aeolus tore through them in just over one minute.  Total damage: no turrets destroyed, hull strength at 94%.  Hardly "dishing out the pain".

Unless you have an overwhelming number of attacking fighters or an extremely long-range weapon, you'll have a hard time penetrating the Aeolus's flak screen.  Unless you replace every weapon with blob turrets.

Also, what the hell are Secrets Reborn?

Sorry, conflation of phrases.  I meant Secrets Revealed, the last Silent Threat mission.

[BlackDove]

And that's assuming I'm soloing the thing. With a full four fighter wing, I can just sit on my ass and have them dish out the pain with their Subach's and hornets/harpoons/tornadoes.

Like I said, the dumb**** AI with the generally retarded weaponry will do the job. I don't think you need more than that to call something a piece of ****.

I'll thank you to check your facts next time before you post such demonstrably false assertions such as these.  I just FREDded up a simple mission with a wing of 4 Myrmidons armed with Subachs, Prometheus S's, Harpoons, and Hornets.  I gave them a Disarm order against a single Aeolus and sat back to watch the action.  The Aeolus tore through them in just over one minute.  Total damage: no turrets destroyed, hull strength at 94%.  Hardly "dishing out the pain".

Unless you have an overwhelming number of attacking fighters or an extremely long-range weapon, you'll have a hard time penetrating the Aeolus's flak screen.  Unless you replace every weapon with blob turrets.

Also, what the hell are Secrets Reborn?

Sorry, conflation of phrases.  I meant Secrets Revealed, the last Silent Threat mission.

And proof of inadequacy right there considering that the actual command "disarm my target" is not what you're supposed to use when you're disarming a target.

To disarm a target you need to employ another set of commands, and they need to be in accordance with the ship's (one you're disarming) position in relation to your position in relation to the stuff you're ordering to accomplish the disarming.

One has to be a keen observer in order to make the best use of the AI. That doesn't change that the AI in itself is an idiot, as I said before, which is a statement very true when the AI's pattern of attack, evasion and defence is put in comparison to a player's. But controlled well, it is more than an even match for an Aeolus.

When I said a full wing, I meant exactly what you employed in this mission, and actually you gave them PromS. I wouldn't have even given them that. Too much of an easy overkill. Both banks Subachs suffices.

[BlackDove]

By the way, added mentalnote for you:

Save that mission. I don't have a computer right now, but once I get one that can run FS2 (hopefully within the next few months), I'll FRAPS you how to go about it, so that you can see I'm not talking bull****.

[Goober5000]

And proof of inadequacy right there considering that the actual command "disarm my target" is not what you're supposed to use when you're disarming a target.

To disarm a target you need to employ another set of commands, and they need to be in accordance with the ship's (one you're disarming) position in relation to your position in relation to the stuff you're ordering to accomplish the disarming.

That's hardly "sitting on ones ass", though, which is what you claimed.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that it can be done through issuing commands alone - stranger things have happened.  But the commander would have to be a really, really clever tactician to pull it off.  Doing it in combination with your wingmates is substantially easier, of course; I just did it - but not without paying a heavy toll in hull and wingmen.  I can't imagine how one would do it alone with just Subachs and Tempests.

If you can do it, fine.  More power to you.  But you can't expect the majority of GTVA pilots to be capable of such a feat.  Especially on a regular basis.

[BlackDove]

Actually it's nothing overtly complex. If we had multiplayer, I could teach you how to do it in a timeframe of about fifteen minutes. I would have to "show-it-to-you" though.

Let's face it, the commands aren't brain surgery. The AI is pretty simplistic in going about executing them. This stuff is easy to achieve. When I said "Sitting on my ass", I meant not moving the ship at all. That's what sitting on ass means. Coupled with a few strokes of the keyboard I doubt it's tasking in any respect.

Like I said. I'll FRAPS it for you when I get a computer that can run FS2, and I can actively teach it easily through multi. Most people don't realise that stuff like this is piss easy. The hard part of the game mechanic lies elsewhere, but I doubt many people active in the community know of it, considering you can't see it through FRED, modding or tables. I guess one of the perks from being the last remnant of the enlightened PXO crowd. (and I say enlightened because most of that community were morons to the power of infinity - me included in the start).

GTVA pilots who had control of a wing would I imagine, _need_ to know these types of tactics.

[Christopherger]

   Wow, I was away for some days, and returned to see that my humble request about
the canon has become a wonderful extension of the canon itself. Thanks so much for this very interesting discussion about the Aeolus which I have read about but not in the detail
you all share.

thanks very much. it sounds unwise to push an Aeolus too far without sufficent back up!