[jr2]

Eh, change it from "Stupid stuff" to "Random Stuff" or "Miscellaneous" or "Everything in General & Nothing in Particular" or something like that... just because there's no stated purpose doesn't make it stupid.

[aldo_14]

Yes, but was it the arguments where people were putting forward logical arguments or was it the ones where people were going 'Amerika Sux!! Nazi Fascist Dictatorship USA ahoy!1!111!'?

Personally, I think the boards have been over divided now, but I can understand what's trying to be achieved here, I just think possibly the pendulum swung a little too far under its own inertia, but I'm willing to wait and see how things go.

Isn't that what moderation was for?

I've probably learnt more from arguing here than anything else, but when I see perfectly polite, interesting and perhaps even educational stuff is being arbitrarily moved to the 'padded cell' for no good reason, I can't help but get the gut instinct to bugger off and never return - and i doubt I'm alone in that.

[jr2]

If they buggered off without arguing about what was done, I wonder how good of an arguer they were...
But "Padded Cell" and "Stupid Stuff"... think of something else.  Please?  I could care less, but I think others would find it insulting

[Wobble73]

Meh, I think it means more to lurkers than actual members, I mean I come in through "Show unread posts since last visit" and pick a thread title that interests me. So I hardly realise there are sub forums, it's all Hard Light Productions to me! 

[jr2]

I just noticed it 2 minutes ago, doing exactly that...

[Ghostavo]

People seem to forget that opinions carry with it a certain ammount of emotion. When discussing a subject, someone is bound to feel personally involved with it. The General Discussions forum is not wikipedia!

Many of those so called political posts that most admins seem to dislike can serve a purpose. Personally, through the years I've been here it was thanks to them that I saw the political changes in the world and what people from diferent countries thought about them, either the changes were in their own countries or not. People tend to focus on those that post and not on those that read those posts. Most often in those threads those who are arguing have something to contribute or disagree about (for better or worse). These are the most unlikely users to have their minds changed. What happens in the background can be totally diferent.

Anyway, at the very least put FreeSpace related contents above Games and Gaming. If not, the arguement about "what is this community focus" becomes a bit.... "unfocused".

[/rant]

[jr2]

Anyway, at the very least put FreeSpace related contents above Games and Gaming. If not, the arguement about "what is this community focus" becomes a bit.... "unfocused".

That part I agree on... should we make a poll, or would that only serve to make things worse?
If you did do a poll, make sure that it included several different layouts, and was editable in case one needed to be added / changed later.  What do you think?

[Flipside]

Personally, it actually makes more work for the moderators, which isn't something I'm happy about in the short term. As I said earlier, having a seperate forum for 'silly stuff' just means we have to read through and decide what goes where. Yes, that's what a Mod is supposed to do, but when things start subdividing to this level, it gets harder and harder to give the appearance of being 'impartial'.

As I said before, I don't want to start having to deal with being accused to being biased because I moved one thread and not another, and those situations have already started, though I've not moved anything personally from the new forums yet.

I'll agree that the debate in here is interesting, and, yes, I've learned a lot of things from here too, it's usually just a very visible few who tend to ruin, but as Taristin pointed out, I can fully understand why the Admin don't want first time visitors to the Forum to see threads like 'Cluster**** to the Whitehouse!' etc as their first point of call.

For my own point of view, I think your thread was moved too early, had it turned into an evolution vs creationism debate then it should have been moved, I'll go on record with that.

That part I agree on... should we make a poll, or would that only serve to make things worse?

I think that would be a bad idea at this moment in time. Admin are in 'Benevolent Dictatorship' mode right now, give it a day or two and let things cool off a little

[aldo_14]

Personally, it actually makes more work for the moderators, which isn't something I'm happy about in the short term. As I said earlier, having a seperate forum for 'silly stuff' just means we have to read through and decide what goes where. Yes, that's what a Mod is supposed to do, but when things start subdividing to this level, it gets harder and harder to give the appearance of being 'impartial'.

As I said before, I don't want to start having to deal with being accused to being biased because I moved one thread and not another, and those situations have already started, though I've not moved anything personally from the new forums yet.

I'll agree that the debate in here is interesting, and, yes, I've learned a lot of things from here too, it's usually just a very visible few who tend to ruin, but as Taristin pointed out, I can fully understand why the Admin don't want first time visitors to the Forum to see threads like 'Cluster**** to the Whitehouse!' etc as their first point of call.

For my own point of view, I think your thread was moved too early, had it turned into an evolution vs creationism debate then it should have been moved, I'll go on record with that.

a) why? I mean, if it's a perfectly rational debate, why move it?  Will we move debates on things like games or new BSG vs old as well?
and
b) to Padded Cell?

[jr2]

... but there should be a separate place for civilized debate; if it gets nasty, then throw it in the padded cell.  I don't like the idea of all debates automatically going to the padded cell.  See, if you only throw nasty debates in the padded cell, then it makes sense that debates would be less likely to get nasty.  Also give the offending parties a chance to edit their posts and have the thread moved back to the "Debating Hall" or whatever you would call it.

[Flipside]

a) why? I mean, if it's a perfectly rational debate, why move it?  Will we move debates on things like games or new BSG vs old as well?
and
b) to Padded Cell?

The way the Forums are set up at the moment, which is what I have to work around, then if it became a debate it would go to the Meeting Hall, if it turned in an flamefest it would go to the Padded Cell.

Of course, then we have to deal with 'What is the difference between a flamefest and a debate', and everyones' differing opinion.

To be honest, I'm pissed off, not because of the move, but because I'm simply working in a system that appeared to me as quickly as to everyone else, I don't agree with all of it, but I'm sure as hell not going to take the flak for it either.

[Inquisitor]

The sky has apparently fallen. Honestly, I'd rather a little fluidity, try some different things, see what it actually looks like rather than *****, piss  and moan. Someone accused me of not offering concrete suggestions, they happened to have been wrong, but the advice was good in and of itself. Don't tell me its ****ed up, tell me how to un**** it. Myself, and a number of other community veterans seem to think the status quo WAS fubar. We had started, more or less quietly, to fade away. I've been "in"this community for 9 going on 10 years. Seeing someone who used to be an active contributor find their way back to "us" was something of a personal watershed moment for me, so I started asking the questions again. What's the focus? What's the point? Why does this place take up bandwidth? Who is in charge?

Which group are you planning on driving away? It seems that its a binary choice for most of the posters here. One or the other. If the answer is "the group you don't belong to" that means the fair few number of people who actually think this is a good idea (or at least something going in the right direction), screw them, eh?

Who's being elitist?

This place had been something to be proud of, fine work was done here. It still is, but it's been obscured by a mountain of embarrassing trash. I stopped pointing real developers here about a year ago, it wasn't worth explaining to them that no, you just have to look past the garbage for the good stuff or other caveats.

My challenge to the people who run this forum has always been: Find your focus.  If this is a real, actionable start to that, I'm happy to stick around and see it through.

You want civil discussion, but telling me if you can't have it your way you'll take your toys and leave is far from civil or adult. If that's what you have learned from these debates you are proud of, maybe you need to evaluate the value of that lesson.

[aldo_14]

... but there should be a separate place for civilized debate; if it gets nasty, then throw it in the padded cell.  I don't like the idea of all debates automatically going to the padded cell.  See, if you only throw nasty debates in the padded cell, then it makes sense that debates would be less likely to get nasty.  Also give the offending parties a chance to edit their posts and have the thread moved back to the "Debating Hall" or whatever you would call it.

Except now we have 2 cells for throwing debate.  And one example of something that was neither nasty nor a debate being moved to the 'bad' one of them.

The sky has apparently fallen. Honestly, I'd rather a little fluidity, try some different things, see what it actually looks like rather than *****, piss  and moan. Someone accused me of not offering concrete suggestions, they happened to have been wrong, but the advice was good in and of itself. Don't tell me its ****ed up, tell me how to un**** it. Myself, and a number of other community veterans seem to think the status quo WAS fubar. We had started, more or less quietly, to fade away. I've been "in"this community for 9 going on 10 years. Seeing someone who used to be an active contributor find their way back to "us" was something of a personal watershed moment for me, so I started asking the questions again.

what if these changes drive away active contributors?

[jr2]

Hmph.  But all the fubar stuff was in "Hard-Light", correct?  Why couldn't you just make the "Padded Cell" (I still think its insulting), then throw that stuff from "Hard-Light" into there, and only after fair warning to edit posts?  And, like I said, once posts have been edited to carry their point across in a civil manner, move it back.

[Snail]

As I said on the 'I AM NOT AMUSED' thread. CHANGE IT BACK. Please.

Long live the HLP.

[kode]

I can't be arsed to actually read any others opinions about the new layout, but here are mine:
1. It sucks
2. Rift ripoff much?
3. Where are my pants?

[Rictor]

But since when is it news that the Internet is about petty, pointless flaming between people who have nothing better to do. That's what the ****ing medium subsists on. Without politics and porn, the Internet would still be three guys at Harvard talking to two guys from MIT about astrophysics. What kind of elitist trip is to condemn people's most basic need to blather on with total strangers at odd hours of the night as not prim and proper enough. And I'm not even being sarcastic here - inane chatter is literally the heart and soul of this entire medium. There is a fine line between putting a focus on mods and the SCP and regarding more than half of the community, the people who don't contribute, as a barely-tolerated nuisance.

Being at each other's throats all the time, which incidentally I don't think is true (HLP is a bastion of civility compared to 90% of other forums), is not proof against community, but rather for it. The fact that I know the geopolitical opinions of some stranger living in Scotland and the musical taste of some weird little troll in Alaska is the reason I keep coming back here.

[Inquisitor]

what if these changes drive away active contributors?

What if not making them does? See what I mean about binary?

[Dysko]

Looks like the reorganization of the forum index, made to prevent flame wars, unleashed a big flame war in this thread...

[Rictor]

OK, so here's some constructive, actionable criticism:

Have two main Off Topic forums, same as before, Hard Light General Discusssion and Gaming Discussion. Put them where ever you like. Like I said, I've got nothing against the placement. If they're an "embarasement", fine - put them at the bottom. Absolutely no one who doesn't want to go there has to. But separating them into three or four different boards for no real reason is pointless and annoying. If real developers (who I take it don't have political opinions, tech problems, personal issues or musical tastes) want to come here and see the SCP stuff, great - it's right up there at the top. The rest of us mortals aren't going to embarass anyone. If someone regards the General Discussion as a cesspool of illiterate retards - you know, people who contribute nothing like aldo, Bobbaou, karajorma and so on, then they need never visit it. Simple solution.