[karajorma]

Does it?

That's a totaly human-centered way of thinking...the whole universe revoles around us...Yeah, right

Do we assign to a "item" something it doesn't have or do we simply recognize (to some extent) something is allready poseses?


EDIT: I asked does it have a value (regardless of what it is, even if a unknown variable) not what it is. Obviously you cannot tell without hearing.

And I've told you several times that art is completely subjective and has no objective value. You can say objectively that a piece of music is loud by measuring the decibel level. You can say it's fast by measuring the BPM. What intrinsic yardstick are you going to tell me you can use to say a piece of music is beautiful?

If you are correct that there is a value you can send a computer probe to measure it and have it report back whether the music has value or not without a human ear every listening to it.

Your claims that this is a humanocentric view are simply a bull**** attempt to deflect people away from noticing that you still haven't managed to answer the question I have now asked you a multitude of times. Having trouble coming up with an objective way to measure the value of a piece of music? Hardly surprising cause there isn't one.

Trash, you're talking but you're not actually saying anything. You just keep asking questions back and basically babbling.

Of course he is. He's backed himself into a corner trying to defend a nonsensical theory and his only recourse is to babble and hope no one spots that he has as yet been unable to defend his theory that music has an objective value with even the smallest shred of proof.

[TrashMan]

Trash, you're talking but you're not actually saying anything. You just keep asking questions back and basically babbling. Answer these questions: How do you assign worth to something that no one will hear? And how does this scale of worth qualify as objective?

I'm saying more than you apparently... You're missing the point, but it doesn't really matter.

Let's just say I belive all things have some intrinsic value to it - wether you actually hit that value on the head is another matter.

And as I said, there are things in music I belive are quantifiable with a good degree of accuracy - of course, they cannot be mesured without anyone to hear it, but those values are still there regardless.

Is my scale of worth objective? I hope so.. of course, there is no way to prove it or know for sure

And I've told you several times that art is completely subjective and has no objective value. You can say objectively that a piece of music is loud by measuring the decibel level. You can say it's fast by measuring the BPM. What intrinsic yardstick are you going to tell me you can use to say a piece of music is beautiful?

And I don't give a friggin damn what you think.. You can't prove art is subjective any more than you can prove or disprove things like universal morality. IT stircly a matter of belief.
You ask for algorythms...there are none....just liek there arn't algorithms for a lot of stuff that are common sense..


Let's jsut all agree that we disagree and leave it at that, shall we?

[karajorma]

Ah, argumentum ad ignorantiam, the old fallback.

If you can't supply an algorithm, give me a clue. Tell me what you would be measuring?

[Wobble73]

And I don't give a friggin damn what you think.. You can't prove art is subjective any more than you can prove or disprove things like universal morality. IT stircly a matter of belief.
You ask for algorythms...there are none....just liek there arn't algorithms for a lot of stuff that are common sense..


Let's jsut all agree that we disagree and leave it at that, shall we?

 

Now that IS funny!

Of course, that's only my opinion which is purely subjective!  




 

[Unknown Target]

Trash, I'm gonna be honest with you...I can't read that post. It's completely unintelligible.

[Hades]

Trash, I'm gonna be honest with you...I can't read that post.

Seconded.

[TrashMan]

Maby I'm explaining it the wrong way ..It can't be the language barrier, as my english is excellent

erm..let's try it this way.... What consitutes art? A TRUE work of arn't can't really be something anyone can make in 5 minutes, now can it? Sure, some so-called artists take a load off in a bath tub and present that as art, but you can hardly call it that!
And yeah, I know some people will thinks it's art, but that proves nothing. No matter how redicolus a idea you can think of I can guarantee you'll find someone somewhere on this planet that will like it. Figures, there's 6 billions of us and at least half are idiots.

Art should be something that requires time, great skill and effort to make..something very few can make - like the statue of David, the Mona Lisa..or Mozarts or Beethowens simphonies..Those are not things that can be emulated by every regular Joe on the street.

That's why I consider rap inferior - everyone can do it. Now things like classical music not only require great skill, and effort to compose, they also require great skill and effort to preform.
And, IIRC it's been proven that classical music has benefical influence on an infants development, while rap has a negative one.

There you got - two mesurable things. Others are not nearly as easy to quantifyand are more abstract, but whatever...

[Wobble73]

Maby I'm explaining it the wrong way ..It can't be the language barrier, as my english is excellent

erm..let's try it this way.... What consitutes art? A TRUE work of arn't can't really be something anyone can make in 5 minutes, now can it? Sure, some so-called artists take a load off in a bath tub and present that as art, but you can hardly call it that!
And yeah, I know some people will thinks it's art, but that proves nothing. No matter how redicolus a idea you can think of I can guarantee you'll find someone somewhere on this planet that will like it. Figures, there's 6 billions of us and at least half are idiots.

Art should be something that requires time, great skill and effort to make..something very few can make - like the statue of David, the Mona Lisa..or Mozarts or Beethowens simphonies..Those are not things that can be emulated by every regular Joe on the street.

That's why I consider rap inferior - everyone can do it. Now things like classical music not only require great skill, and effort to compose, they also require great skill and effort to preform.
And, IIRC it's been proven that classical music has benefical influence on an infants development, while rap has a negative one.

There you got - two mesurable things. Others are not nearly as easy to quantifyand are more abstract, but whatever...

Then you never saw last years X-Factor on ITV1.!

[karajorma]

Anyone can do it badly != anyone can do it well.

Anyone can play the piano. That doesn't mean we can all actually make a melody that other people are interested in listening to.

Who says that a rapper who can rap well isn't displaying skill? Who says it doesn't take time? Who says it doesn't take effort? Using that yardstick if a rapper spends months working on a song and few people can sing it well then it has intrinsic value simply because of that?

Again this is a subjective measurement. You're deciding which effort was worth it. You're deciding what takes skill and what doesn't.

And, IIRC it's been proven that classical music has benefical influence on an infants development

That study was proven to be bogus actually. In fact they found that many such products actually retarded the child's language development skills.

[Mobius]

And, IIRC it's been proven that classical music has benefical influence on an infants development

That study was proven to be bogus actually. In fact they found that many such products actually retarded the child's language development skills.

I know that the scientists who clamed that listening at classical music is good for IQ were bogus. I could never imagine that classical music has bad effects on children. Are you sure? As far as I know, only watching TV makes children a bit retarded!

Art should be something that requires time, great skill and effort to make..something very few can make - like the statue of David, the Mona Lisa..or Mozarts or Beethowens simphonies..Those are not things that can be emulated by every regular Joe on the street.

This is damn true(the statue of David is far from being perfect, but there's a valuable reason). Modern genres of music succeed just because they don't require skills. Mozart, for example, had particular ears which were useful. He also was a genius(he composed an awesome music soundtrack at the age of five!).

You're all going a bit OT...that video accused the skills of Rappers, but it also accused how Rappers influence teenagers. It is a fact that they don't go well at school and/or disrespect their parents just because of Rap.

[karajorma]

How are you going to prove that rap causes them to disobey their parents when it could simply be the other way round? That disrespectful children are more likely to be the kind who listen to rap.

You quoting cause and effect as if it's a proven fact when it's nothing of the sort.

Again I ask you to prove your case in a way that doesn't prove Jack Thompson is also right. Not to mention all those people who want to ban horror movies and porn "For the children!"

I know that the scientists who clamed that listening at classical music is good for IQ were bogus. I could never imagine that classical music has bad effects on children. Are you sure? As far as I know, only watching TV makes children a bit retarded!

Basically classical music (and only certain kinds of classical!) gives the listener a short term boost to concentration. Studies found a similar effect from reading Steven King BTW.

The retardation occurs because the parents assume that this is a long term effect and plonk the kid down to listen to Baby Mozart instead of interacting with them themselves.

[TrashMan]

Like I said, we agreee that we disagree...

I know more than enpough ppl who agree with me that music has an intrincis value, so I'm not alone in this..

Humbug..I got's better ways to spend my time that discussing this

[Mobius]

How are you going to prove that rap causes them to disobey their parents when it could simply be the other way round? That disrespectful children are more likely to be the kind who listen to rap.

You quoting cause and effect as if it's a proven fact when it's nothing of the sort.

Again I ask you to prove your case in a way that doesn't prove Jack Thompson is also right. Not to mention all those people who want to ban horror movies and porn "For the children!"

Maybe because I know...well, I knew...boys and girls who love rap and decided to ignore them for the time being just because they behave like monkeys? It is a fact that some(some!)rap lovers are exaggerately influenced by the songs they listen at. Keep in mind that I said "some", not "all".

Basically classical music (and only certain kinds of classical!) gives the listener a short term boost to concentration. Studies found a similar effect from reading Steven King BTW.

The retardation occurs because the parents assume that this is a long term effect and plonk the kid down to listen to Baby Mozart instead of interacting with them themselves.

That's more a damage caused by the lack of interaction, not actually a damage caused by the music itself. There's a difference!

Humbug..I got's better ways to spend my time that discussing this

[karajorma]

Maybe because I know...well, I knew...boys and girls who love rap and decided to ignore them for the time being just because they behave like monkeys? It is a fact that some(some!)rap lovers are exaggerately influenced by the songs they listen at. Keep in mind that I said "some", not "all".

Yes but is it just rap that would influence them? If there was no rap music wouldn't then just find some other socially unacceptable fad to join with and use that as their excuse for acting poor.

You want to stop playing computer games because two boys in America who played Quake a lot shot up a school? Cause your argument against rap music can be directly transposed to the Columbine shooting and video games. Your arguments against rap music are not hugely dissimilar to those that Jack Thompson would use against violence in video games.

Yet because you like video games I'm sure you'll make the same argument I'm making here as to why he's wrong.

So what is the difference? And don't give me some wishy washy nonsense about it being a proven effect. It's not.

That's more a damage caused by the lack of interaction, not actually a damage caused by the music itself. There's a difference!

I never said the music was to blame. But the lack of interaction is caused by the erroneous assumption that the music will do good on its own.

Humbug..I got's better ways to spend my time that discussing this

Who do you think you are kidding?

The "I'm right and here's why but it's not worth discussing the matter" trick is one of the oldest ones in debating. And as for your claim that you know lots of people who believe you're right, didn't you assert earlier that half the population of the world were idiots?

[TrashMan]

Your half

EDIT - and no, no tricks. I realyl don't have the energy to continue this, and I got a s***load of work to do - about a dozen mission, 3-4 models + that Demon, then music to cut and mix, mission testing and balancing...and thats for my campaign alone.. add a few other projects I'km helping out, my exam and 2 seminars I got to finish pretty soon and you get a nice mambo jumbo.

Technicly, I COULD fiund time, I allways manage to when I really want to do something...but this discussion ain't worth it

[BloodEagle]

And I've told you several times that art is completely subjective and has no objective value.

I hate to ask the same question twice, but I want an answer. What are your views on engineering?

[karajorma]

I don't see what your question even is.

[Flipside]

He's talking about the, often confused, difference between an art and a craft I think.

Personally I believe there's a third option, for example, Computer Programming is a craft, it requires technical knowledge and practice, however, there are also reasons to call it an art, Architects sit in this strange 'Crart' category as well, there's a Rigid 'under-basis' to anything they make which has to be stable and durable (much like a Programmer) but beyond those basic rules, there is a lot of artistic freedom.

Sound Engineers are Crartists as well, in a way, they have to keep within certain 'rules', but there's a lot of flexibility in those rules, and it takes an artist, as well as a craftsman to do sound production well.

[karajorma]

Ah. That's what I thought he was on about but he threw me by saying engineering rather than architecture. Again it's easy to answer. Whether a building fulfils it's purpose is something you can measure objectively. Whether it looks good while doing it, that's a subjective matter.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

[NGTM-1R]

Ah. That's what I thought he was on about but he threw me by saying engineering rather than architecture. Again it's easy to answer. Whether a building fulfils it's purpose is something you can measure objectively. Whether it looks good while doing it, that's a subjective matter.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

Logical gap opens, not that it will help trash much; did the song fulfill it's purpose?