[Admiral_Stones]

For me, the Colossus toke more dmg in the mission where that crazy bastard drives his Orion in to it then in the Sathanas encounter.

[haloboy100]

the orion gets destroyed before it even touches the colossus for me.

[Killer Whale]

Though it sill does though, also, sathanas jumps in, colossus sitting duck, gets ready to fire and bam, it might do a couple of shots but it's down! Sathanas terrifies all ships in area (including command) and they jump out, a lone fighter disarms, disables, and smashes the ship to pieces, then takes a look at the hull with it's maxims and trebuchets, gets bored and jumps out. I can get a juggernaut smashed to pieces, but there's not beams to take out the defencless warship so i give up.

The warship fires beams straight away (bear in mind they can take out a hecate/hatsesput in one shot both warhships at 100% If you fire a double trebuchet at one beam it takes another). So a juggernaut is more designed to jump in and suprise a warship and knock it down, rather than stand around and let someone jump in behind it (there's a couple of anti-warship beams at the rear of the ship, they can knock warships out to).

Its designed to, Jump, sathanas, >>>> BOOM!!, Jump.
Not, Jump, Sobek, ><<<, BOOM!! Jump, deimos><<< BOOM!! Jump, hatsesput, >><<< BOOM!! Jump, Orion, >><<< BOOM!!

It takes everything in front of it, and swallows it!! Not defend an area from attacks coming from all and every direction. That it's well suited in doing

[haloboy100]

thats all the flaw of shivan design, is that some of the ships are attack-oriented, so if you catch one off guard and disable it it's toastied.

[Dark Hunter]

True, but they can deal absolutely devastating blows right off the bat... provided their target's in front of them.

[Polpolion]

thats all the flaw of shivan design, is that some of the ships are attack-oriented, so if you catch one off guard and disable it it's toastied.

Actually the Moloch has pretty decent coverage, just the wrong weapons. The Moloch is probably used as the fleet's defensive power.

[Mustang19]

People don't realize that almost all of the Shivan heavies are actually poorly armed compared to their GTVA counterparts. Like you mentioned, the Moloch has good weapons placement but only has, say, 4 flaks compared to the Deimos' 6, no anti-fighter beams versus the Deimos' 4, and 3 SReds versus the Deimos' 4 TerSlashes. Look at the Ravana too. It has the most beams of any Shivan capital below juggernaut, but this only ammounts to 2 SReds and 2 LReds versus the Hecate's 4 TerSlash.

So yes, Shivan warships are surprisingly underarmed. The only exceptions are the Sathanas and Lilith. The Rak has something going for it with 3 SReds, but lacks any real anti-fighter armament other than its one AAAh.

[Snail]

The argument that the GTVA could have defeated the Shivans simply by backstabbing them is more annoying than FS3 questions IMO, because nowadays it's said far more than FS3 questions.

The Shivans aren't idiots. If you warp your destroyer behind them they'll either jump out or deploy a Ravana to backstab you. And if that isn't enough, you seem to have forgotten that the Sathanas has something called a 'fighterbay.'

[TrashMan]

True, but so do the GTVA ships.

It becomes the question : Who has more ships deployed ATM,  who can deploy them faster and who has better AF defences.

[Snail]

Oh, and did I mention ships can turn faster than ships can move?

(Specially the Colossus... Baseball bat. )

[AlphaOne]

Well sure in ideal circustances the GTVA MIGHT of had a CHANCE to at least hold the line against the shivans but defeat them?? Well that is another question . The GTVA doesnt have 80+ Destroyers so it is a very dificult question to anwear properly.

However the GTVA does have superior af defences superior fighter/bommber tactics. This in itself could of helped to equal the balance of the 2 oposing forces.

Also the GTVA does have the abilaty to scramble aditional reinforcements from bases all aroun the GTVA something which the shivans aparently do not have the abilaty to do at least not as fast.

[Snail]

Also the GTVA does have the abilaty to scramble aditional reinforcements from bases all aroun the GTVA something which the shivans aparently do not have the abilaty to do at least not as fast.

Well IMO the only reason the Sathanes didn't arrive earlier was because they were further away. Once they're all at your doorstep, you're screwed. You saw how fast the Sathanes started to arrive in Into the Lion's Den. They were probably all moving as a pack, with the first Sathanas being a scout or something.

[Gamma_Draconis]

That paints a weird image in my mind. A Sathanas as a scout?

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Oh, and did I mention ships can turn faster than ships can move?

(Specially the Colossus... Baseball bat. )

Not really. The pivot point of the Colossus is at the rear (where its Large Engines are). All ships have only one pivot point. Perhaps Volition should have made a front pivot and rear pivot for realism. It just doesn't make sense for a capital ship to swing "like a baseball bat". Maybe that's why you never see the Colossus moving and turning around much in the FreeSpace 2 Main Campaign.

People don't realize that almost all of the Shivan heavies are actually poorly armed compared to their GTVA counterparts. Like you mentioned, the Moloch has good weapons placement but only has, say, 4 flaks compared to the Deimos' 6, no anti-fighter beams versus the Deimos' 4, and 3 SReds versus the Deimos' 4 TerSlashes. Look at the Ravana too. It has the most beams of any Shivan capital below juggernaut, but this only ammounts to 2 SReds and 2 LReds versus the Hecate's 4 TerSlash.

So yes, Shivan warships are surprisingly underarmed. The only exceptions are the Sathanas and Lilith. The Rak has something going for it with 3 SReds, but lacks any real anti-fighter armament other than its one AAAh.

It may be possible that Shivan warships are underpowered because they fire their beams more quickly.
However, I would think that, for the Moloch, it really IS strange that it has no anti-fighter beams. Having a couple of those would make it a bit of a nightmare.

Though it sill does though, also, sathanas jumps in, colossus sitting duck, gets ready to fire and bam, it might do a couple of shots but it's down! Sathanas terrifies all ships in area (including command) and they jump out, a lone fighter disarms, disables, and smashes the ship to pieces, then takes a look at the hull with it's maxims and trebuchets, gets bored and jumps out. I can get a juggernaut smashed to pieces, but there's not beams to take out the defencless warship so i give up.

The warship fires beams straight away (bear in mind they can take out a hecate/hatsesput in one shot both warhships at 100% If you fire a double trebuchet at one beam it takes another). So a juggernaut is more designed to jump in and suprise a warship and knock it down, rather than stand around and let someone jump in behind it (there's a couple of anti-warship beams at the rear of the ship, they can knock warships out to).

Its designed to, Jump, sathanas, >>>> BOOM!!, Jump.
Not, Jump, Sobek, ><<<, BOOM!! Jump, deimos><<< BOOM!! Jump, hatsesput, >><<< BOOM!! Jump, Orion, >><<< BOOM!!

It takes everything in front of it, and swallows it!! Not defend an area from attacks coming from all and every direction. That it's well suited in doing

The Shivans may have thought that a rear-facing LRed was enough flank cover. Try this: get a Hatshepsut to jump in directly behind a Sathanas. You'll notice that, even with that single beam cannon, it can seriously damage, even destroy, the Hatshepsut.

the orion gets destroyed before it even touches the colossus for me.

That depends on where the Orion jumps in. If you get it to jump in behind the Colossus, it may have a fighting chance. Heck, you could use a Hades if you want to (although it'll probably get disabled very quickly).

It becomes the question : Who has more ships deployed ATM,  who can deploy them faster and who has better AF defences.

I think the Shivans are better at fighter-bomber deployment.

Keep in mind that they fought against a race with slightly superior technology than the GTVA 8000 years ago and won.

[haloboy100]

Quintuple post much?

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Sorry about that. I just find that posting a separate reply for each separate quote is easier and less time-consuming.

[haloboy100]

I fail to see how it's easier, since when you reply you can scroll down and see other people's posts, and there is a little quote button in each one.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Indeed there is. However, it only works for a single quote. To do them all at once, you need to have, what, five tabs open all at once? My computer cannot handle that many tabs without jamming up.

[haloboy100]

Indeed there is. However, it only works for a single quote. To do them all at once, you need to have, what, five tabs open all at once? My computer cannot handle that many tabs without jamming up.

No, when you press the "reply" button you see a list of posts under the body of the message. It's in a box called "topic summary"

[Androgeos Exeunt]

...hunh? I think I must have overlooked it...viewing now.

Ahh cock...I saw everything but that "insert quote" thingie. I've made the changes.