Author Topic: Bold new theory explains origins of universe  (Read 10227 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Bold new theory explains origins of universe
Okay, I know this is a popular source, so we should be skeptical of how enthusiastic this article is.

Nonetheless, this new account of the origins of the universe resolves a number of outstanding issues, explains where the Big Bang came from (which many theories before have done, but this one is quite elegant), and provides possible experimental tests.

I like it. It's very beautiful and very powerful.

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
I don't like it.

I'm allergic to recursion. This thread is giving me hives.

This thread is giving my hives hives.

Oh no!

*pop*
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
Fascinating stuff, I know that, thanks to Hawking radiation, it's possible for even a Black Hole to decay to nothing over time, but that, I suspect, takes far longer than the life of every star in the universe it formed in. I assume that given an infinite amount of time, the only thing left would be Black Holes, which would then gravitically attract each other over billions of years until the Universe simply consists of one Black Hole that more or less holds the Universe.

This theory would actually tie in quite well with that :)

 

Offline The E

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
It definitely sounds very nice and tidy.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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There must be changes, miss to feel strong
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
This is new? I'd heard the universes-forming-from-black-holes theory years ago... although maybe this adds some details to it?

Edit: I'd heard about the evolving-universes theory, too.

Although this 'torsion' stuff I hadn't heard of. Then again, I hadn't looked into the details, so running into an unfamiliar term or two is no big surprise.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 05:41:04 pm by Aardwolf »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
This is new? I'd heard the universes-forming-from-black-holes theory years ago... although maybe this adds some details to it?

Noob. Read the article.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
Derp. I just read it, and it sounds even more like the theories I'd heard about. Above post edited.

Edit: I found out where I had heard about this before. I had to research and write about a topic of my choice, for a college application essay. I picked the stuff this guy's doing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Smolin

Note the section on "Fecund universes".
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 05:54:23 pm by Aardwolf »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
Derp. I just read it, and it sounds even more like the theories I'd heard about. Above post edited.

God save us from the layperson. *headdesk*

Black holes and the holographic principle have been discussed for decades now. If you're unable to distinguish between those and what's being suggested specifically in this theory, you may need to do more reading.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
I wish it would tell me someone had responded when I'm about to edit a post.  :sigh:

Edited to fix grammar/phrasing
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 05:58:58 pm by Aardwolf »

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
Ok, I think I see what the problem here is!

Quote from: the original poster
Okay, I know this is a popular source, so we should be skeptical of how enthusiastic this article is.

It's worse than that. As with a lot of the "popular" articles about science, it spends too much of its "enthusiasm" explaining stuff that isn't the "new and exciting" part.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
*sigh*

That theory is completely different. The only similarity is that it uses black holes, but its mechanism involves collapse.

Seriously, dude...

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
So, if our universe really did come from a different universe, do we stop calling ours the universe?
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
The fact that the values of the universal constants would evolve over many iterations of the universes going through black holes isn't a similarity? Bull****. The only difference is that one predicts there wouldn't be a singularity / collapse.



And w.r.t. all this:

Quote
Noob. Read the article.
Quote
God save us from the layperson. *headdesk*
Quote
*sigh*
[ ... ]
Seriously, dude...

All it does is make you sound like an asshole and a know-it-all who thinks thinks that anyone looking at the situation from a different angle is an unfortunate but nigh-incorrigible ignoramus. It's demeaning, even insulting, and it adds nothing to the conversation. So cut it out, dammit.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
Okay, the depth of your misapprehension here is impressive. You have focused on the 'universes in black holes' notion - which has been around for decades - to the point where you missed the important stuff, stuff that is nowhere to be seen in the fecund universes notion (which is itself only a special case application of the holographic principle.)

I'm gonna try to help you out here.

Previous iterations of the holographic principle as applied to black holes have not included the critical aspects of the linked article.

These include, for your reading pleasure:

1) Resolution of the inflation problem by means of the ECKS torsion mechanism
2) The unification of quantum mechanics and GR in terms of describing subatomic particles
3) Matter/energy genesis by means of the torsion principle inside the event horizon, including baryogenesis asymmetry in matter/antimatter
4) Explanation of the arrow of time via infalling matter through the event horizon.

None of these key points are present in anything you've described. What you have described is the fecund universe principle, which suggests that universes arise from the collapse of black holes, and that natural selection operates to favor new universes that can in turn generate more black holes. It includes none of the above critical points, which are what make this theory worth noticing.

The fact that you said something as fantastically oblivious as this:

Quote
The fact that the values of the universal constants would evolve over many iterations of the universes going through black holes isn't a similarity? Bull****. The only difference is that one predicts there wouldn't be a singularity / collapse.

suggests to me that you completely missed all four points.

What you have done is taken a general principle that Smolin, the fecund universe man, endorses - the holographic principle - and from there assumed that this was nothing different, in the process completely overlooking at least four world-shatteringly important changes that will totally reshape physics and cosmology if they are substantiated. You are apparently not even aware that Smolin favors loop quantum gravity and thus would not have reached the conclusions in this proposed theory (which rely on a different synthesis of QM and GR.)

This theory explains the arrow of time as an emergent from something that also resolves inflation and you think it's no different from the fecund universes hypothesis because they both involve black holes? Are you aware that nearly everything written about the holographic principle in the past few decades describes universes inside black holes? That is not what is important here.

Forget the black hole universe thing. That's been around for 30 years. What is important is the four points outlined above.

EDIT: removed a hilarious, cutting and beautifully composed but probably nonetheless ill-advised description
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 07:04:08 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
Geezus, did Rian dump you or something? Chill the **** out, Battsy.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
Geezus, did Rian dump you or something? Chill the **** out, Battsy.

I have the ability to generate scorn and derision by the bucketful without seriously perturbing myself.

It just boggles my mind that anyone could see 'oh, universes inside black holes', assume it's the same as something he knows, and then miss inflation, the arrow of time and mother****ing baryogenesis all explained in the same theory.

Miss them so completely, in fact, that he can't see any difference between this synthesis and the general fecund universe principle, which is a trivial thought exercise that makes no major testable or relevant predictions.

Going off this quote:

This is new? I'd heard the universes-forming-from-black-holes theory years ago... although maybe this adds some details to it?

He apparently thought that this theory was about universes forming from black holes, a notion that has been around for decades, and missed the MONUMENTALLY IMPORTANT stuff in the article.

'Maybe this adds some details' indeed. Maybe it resolves every extant problem in physics and cosmology...if it's experimentally born out and if the math holds up in the long run.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 07:04:52 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline The E

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
Consider this a friendly warning. Do not go ad hom over this. This topic is too interesting and fascinating to be destroyed by trading insults. Debate the topic, people, don't make it personal.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
In fairness, some people aren't focussed enough on the physics side of things to spot the differences between this theory and others that involve black-holes, when you get to the Quantum area of Atomic behaviour, many people have a sort of general idea about Quantum states, they may be able to grasp things like power-level hopping etc, but it takes quite a bit of time and dedication to get your head around the sub-atomic stuff. I don't pretend to be an expert in the field, and, in fairness, the article did openly state those differences, but I think that many people are still a bit murky on the whole attempt at blending of micro and macro physics that is currently taking place.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
I'll stop assuming I know what an article is about when articles stop having such stupid titles. I mean, why should I read an article if I can tell from the title that it's something I already know about? And if it's not about what the title says it's about, WTF? Because in case you didn't notice, the title of the article is nothing new. Expecting me to read the article text under such conditions... is like saying "here, read this book", handing me a book with a title the same as a book I've read, and then calling me a retard for thinking it's the book I've read when in fact it's another book with the same title.

In summary: I admit it! I responded before having read the full article! But can really you blame me for assuming the subject of the article has something to do with the title?

  

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Bold new theory explains origins of universe
It's a fair point, and io9's science coverage tends to be a little sensationalist.