[Goober5000]

This is on topic.  I'm simply pointing out that the benefits of a new ANI format extend much further than just cbanis.

[chief1983]

Regardless, even if a new ANI format has uses, for these, isn't an existing format acceptable?

[mjn.mixael]

The existing formats are tolerable. ANI format is incredibly limiting because of the 256 colors issue. EFF doesn't stream and it isn't a container. This isn't a problem until you get to something like FSPort where we have over over 80 hi-res cb_anims alone. Do YOU want to pack a VP with literally THOUSANDS of image files and try to navigate that? Me either. Not to mention the performance issues that Goober mentioned...

The other issues is filesize. Neither of these formats are good for reducing file size. FSPort is passing 1.2 GB of cb_anim data with another 35 ANIs left to hi-res-ify... This means we have FOUR VPs dedicated to nothing but cb anis...

So, to answer the general question.. yes, what we have works. But from an organizational and purely filesize viewpoint, they are hardly ideal.

[Nighteyes]

is the fact that EFFs don't stream such a big issue? what kind of performance does a menu screen need? IIRC when the actual mission loads all memory is cleared...(cbanims frames don't count to the total frames allowed to be used in a mission)
I do agree that a new ANI format would be a welcome addition, or even just using compressed video files that can loop... it will kill the alpha channel but even that can be "hacked" by just using the interface background as part of the video

[chief1983]

Well I meant isn't Ogg capable in some of those situations where streaming is needed.  But also, there's this discussion about the EFF container upgrade that's also slotted for an antipodes run, but I don't think it's progressed past draft stage yet.

[mjn.mixael]

I can't see that link.. must be SCP Internal... care to summarize? Also, who do I need to pay off to get that moving along?

[Iss Mneur]

I can't see that link.. must be SCP Internal... care to summarize? Also, who do I need to pay off to get that moving along?

Yes it is in SCP Internal.  It is a technical discussion about Flaming_Sword's proposed container for EFF.  I would make the proposal link available but I don't know if he wants it spread around.  Basically it is a Tag Length Value based file format (same file layout that png uses) that moves all of the current EFF data into one file and allows for streaming.

Flaming Sword would be the one to bribe.

[Galemp]

EFF still doesn't have any kind of video interlacing, though. Each frame is individually compressed, but if a frame is nearly identical to the one before it, there's no way for it to be reduced in filesize.

[mjn.mixael]

I would rather have it than nothing... At least with an EFF container we wouldn't have the 256 color limit...

Flaming Sword: name your price...

[chief1983]

If you need interlacing, why not use Ogg?  Leave streaming EFF for instances where that won't matter, if we ever get it.

[Goober5000]

Cause there are a ton of obstacles involved in making OGG (or any movie) work within the FS2 interface.

Provided the new container format can use PNG and DDS, we may find that interlacing isn't that critical.  Even more so if it uses run-length-encoding for identical frames.

[Iss Mneur]

Provided the new container format can use PNG and DDS, we may find that interlacing isn't that critical.  Even more so if it uses run-length-encoding for identical frames.

Well, if I recall correctly, PNG is actually a rather stable format from the point of view the pattern of the bits on the disk, which if I am in fact recalling correctly, means that interfame compression would be actually fairly trivial to manage, resulting in something akin to what ANI does to PCX.

[Flaser]

Cause there are a ton of obstacles involved in making OGG (or any movie) work within the FS2 interface.

Provided the new container format can use PNG and DDS, we may find that interlacing isn't that critical.  Even more so if it uses run-length-encoding for identical frames.

I think Goober is missing the point:
What mjn.mixael wants is not an all around support for OGG in the interface, but OGG support for command briefings... or if I take your words literally , then the implementation of *any* windowed playback is hard.

Also chief had a really good suggestion that was ignored by everyone: use ffvp8. It's the closest thing the engine could have to h264 support and since it's Google's baby there's bound to be tons of support for it. He specifically suggested ffmpeg, an LGPL implementation that *can* be used under the SCP license.

Sadly Theora seems to be going the way of the ".ogm" container or the "ungraded" avi once pushed by the makers of Virtual Dub. It's simply not adopted widely enough for there to be support. FFmpeg on the other hand is widely used (even in the acclaimed CCCP), is multi platform and has modern format support.

[Goober5000]

Flaser, the command briefing is part of the interface.   And note that I said any movie.  This includes ffmpeg, ffvp8, and h264.

First of all, you have size restrictions.  Theora frames need to have dimensions that are multiples of 16, so right off the bat you won't be getting an exact match to the cbani drawing area.  Second of all, you're going to run into trouble painting the movie on top of the interface because it's designed to play on its own, either in a window or full-screen, and you'd have to develop some sort of matte system.  Third of all, the movie playing code operates in its own code module with its own drawing routines, which are not going to play at all nicely with the main game code and its drawing routines.  Fourth of all, decoding of any movie format is based on the encoded timer, not the timer used by the game loop, so you'd have to keep the movie code in its own separate thread and deal with the huge synchronization can of worms that that opens.

I can tell you right now that your efforts are going to be much better spent developing the next-generation ANI container format.  I can't stop someone from going down the movie playing rabbit hole if he really wants to, but I fully expect him to burn himself out proving that it doesn't work, and then we'll have wasted energy, time, and effort that could have been spent more productively elsewhere.

[mjn.mixael]

I'm actually with Goober on this one. The more we discuss it, the more I like the idea of the EFF container.

[chief1983]

Good, thanks for actually explaining why it would be difficult to do.

[The E]

Right. Now that Goober explained to us why it'll be difficult to get movie playback more useful, let's get down to the business of making new anis. Does anyone have a design for a new ani format we can use?

[chief1983]

Wasn't that what was in the draft I linked?

[The E]

TLV files, as explained there, are functionally equivalent to vp files. They do not have any of the video compression features we may want in a hi-colour ani.

[chief1983]

Ah.  Well, knock yourselves out then