Author Topic: The US Debt  (Read 26784 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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As opposed to your tax program which would lower total revenues? I thought the goal here was to pay off the debt, not increase it.

 

Offline Unknown Target

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As opposed to your tax program which would lower total revenues? I thought the goal here was to pay off the debt, not increase it.

The point isn't about revenue, the point is about making a society that people would actually enjoy being a part of.

Do you remember when we had that discussion about loopholes? These are the ones I'm talking about. Trying to close one just opens another. Stop fighting and just trust people...that's the whole point.

 

Offline Kosh

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As opposed to your tax program which would lower total revenues? I thought the goal here was to pay off the debt, not increase it.

The point isn't about revenue, the point is about making a society that people would actually enjoy being a part of.

Do you remember when we had that discussion about loopholes? These are the ones I'm talking about. Trying to close one just opens another. Stop fighting and just trust people...that's the whole point.

Trust people? Now there's a good one. I think the shennanigans of wall street during the credit bubble when they essentially policed themselves shows how much people can be trusted.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 
I'd rather have the middle class making off with a bit of the public's money than the upper class.

Then that's not a very fair tax code, is it?

Certainly more fair than the other way around.

For the moment, yes. If this one tax were to turn us around, maybe 300 years from now the rich would broke and we'd have the same problem all over again.

Beyond that, though, I don't think this tax would turn us around.

But the broke will be rich. And you won't have a problem :P.

 

Offline General Battuta

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As opposed to your tax program which would lower total revenues? I thought the goal here was to pay off the debt, not increase it.

The point isn't about revenue, the point is about making a society that people would actually enjoy being a part of.

Do you remember when we had that discussion about loopholes? These are the ones I'm talking about. Trying to close one just opens another. Stop fighting and just trust people...that's the whole point.

hahahahahahahahaha

You were making good arguments there for a while, let's go back to those.

 

Offline Unknown Target

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I'd rather have the middle class making off with a bit of the public's money than the upper class.

Then that's not a very fair tax code, is it?

Certainly more fair than the other way around.

For the moment, yes. If this one tax were to turn us around, maybe 300 years from now the rich would broke and we'd have the same problem all over again.

Beyond that, though, I don't think this tax would turn us around.

But the broke will be rich. And you won't have a problem :P.

Until the rich are broke and then you have the same problem all over again.

 
I'd rather have the middle class making off with a bit of the public's money than the upper class.

Then that's not a very fair tax code, is it?

Certainly more fair than the other way around.

For the moment, yes. If this one tax were to turn us around, maybe 300 years from now the rich would broke and we'd have the same problem all over again.

Beyond that, though, I don't think this tax would turn us around.

But the broke will be rich. And you won't have a problem :P.

Until the rich are broke and then you have the same problem all over again.

But those rich who went broke will be rich again, and we do not have a problem.

 

Offline Unknown Target

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I'd rather have the middle class making off with a bit of the public's money than the upper class.

Then that's not a very fair tax code, is it?

Certainly more fair than the other way around.

For the moment, yes. If this one tax were to turn us around, maybe 300 years from now the rich would broke and we'd have the same problem all over again.

Beyond that, though, I don't think this tax would turn us around.

But the broke will be rich. And you won't have a problem :P.

Until the rich are broke and then you have the same problem all over again.

But those rich who went broke will be rich again, and we do not have a problem.

Yea - because they'll end right back up at this point. Can you see how this could be a cyclical thing?

 
I'd rather have the middle class making off with a bit of the public's money than the upper class.

Then that's not a very fair tax code, is it?

Certainly more fair than the other way around.

For the moment, yes. If this one tax were to turn us around, maybe 300 years from now the rich would broke and we'd have the same problem all over again.

Beyond that, though, I don't think this tax would turn us around.

But the broke will be rich. And you won't have a problem :P.

Until the rich are broke and then you have the same problem all over again.

But those rich who went broke will be rich again, and we do not have a problem.

Yea - because they'll end right back up at this point. Can you see how this could be a cyclical thing?

Yes.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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The point isn't about revenue, the point is about making a society that people would actually enjoy being a part of.

Speaking personally, I'd much rather have my money taken by government based on my habits of spending rather than my habits of working.  In other words, pay into the system for what I take out of it.

Quote
Do you remember when we had that discussion about loopholes? These are the ones I'm talking about. Trying to close one just opens another. Stop fighting and just trust people...that's the whole point.

Such a proposal isn't an attempt to close loopholes, it's an attempt to re-design how the bulk of taxes are collected.  Let's not forget that, historically, income taxes were enacted as temporary measures, largely because consumption taxes were much less feasible 80+ years ago.  It was easier for the state to collect money as people earned it than as they spent it.

Now, we've come to the reverse.  Taxation in most democracies is in a state that permits the wealthy to avoid them due to wrangling with financial instruments, reimburses or reduces the burden on the poor because proportionately a dollar means more to them, allows large corporations to avoid them due to financial manipulation (all perfectly legal), and forces the taxation burden squarely onto the increasingly-beaten middle class and small business owners.  Income taxes are overwhelmingly unfair, and trusting people to accurately file them is laughable.  Meanwhile, corporations largely don't have to abuse the tax system because the exemptions are written in.

Consumption taxes hit everyone equally - and like I said, to deal with the overburden potentially placed on the poor, you address it through rebates.  Incidentally, carbon taxation falls under consumption taxes, along with sales tax, service tax, etc.  The only people that actually lose from such a system is entities that currently pay no taxes at all, because they would lose the holes and benefits that permit them to dodge taxation of their income.
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Offline jr2

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Speaking personally, I'd much rather have my money taken by government based on my habits of spending rather than my habits of working.  In other words, pay into the system for what I take out of it.

This.  :yes:  You also have to realize there there's absolutely no motivation for poorer people to better themselves as things stand now.  All they stand to do is lose all of their rebates, start getting hammered with taxes, and lose their health benefits.  And then when disaster strikes, they aren't eligible for help because they actually have scrabbled together something resembling assets and thus are disqualified.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Speaking personally, I'd much rather have my money taken by government based on my habits of spending rather than my habits of working.  In other words, pay into the system for what I take out of it.

This.  :yes:  You also have to realize there there's absolutely no motivation for poorer people to better themselves as things stand now.  All they stand to do is lose all of their rebates, start getting hammered with taxes, and lose their health benefits.  And then when disaster strikes, they aren't eligible for help because they actually have scrabbled together something resembling assets and thus are disqualified.

I don't think I agree with this. At the very least you shouldn't be stating it as fact. I doubt you can prove it.

 

Offline karajorma

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Speaking personally, I'd much rather have my money taken by government based on my habits of spending rather than my habits of working.  In other words, pay into the system for what I take out of it.

Wouldn't work. The super rich tend to horde money rather than spending it.

Hell, look at Bill Gates and Ingvar Kamprad, men famous for still flying economy class even when they each held the title of richest man on the planet.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Speaking personally, I'd much rather have my money taken by government based on my habits of spending rather than my habits of working.  In other words, pay into the system for what I take out of it.

Wouldn't work. The super rich tend to horde money rather than spending it.

Hell, look at Bill Gates and Ingvar Kamprad, men famous for still flying economy class even when they each held the title of richest man on the planet.

Aye, if a goal of a society that was taxed in that way is to help to make things better for more members of society, then it would be set up so as to create less of an incentive for more monetarily wealthy individuals to spend relative to their monetary holdings.

For example; if airlines want a large amount of customers, then they could possibly want to have the most comfortable seats so that more customers would be willing to go with their airline instead of the other airlines (a society based on competition for "resources"). The airliners could possibly then pursue the best cost to statistical comfort/weight ratios, thus producing seats that are just comfortable enough for you to bear the $300 you saved by going with coach and that you could use to buy something really nice when you landed because you can afford to spend that much money on an impulse buy, and besides, the people in first class are in the same tube for the same amount of hours as you are, regardless of where you sit.

 
Quote
Wouldn't work. The super rich tend to horde money rather than spending it.

Hell, look at Bill Gates and Ingvar Kamprad, men famous for still flying economy class even when they each held the title of richest man on the planet.

That's an overgeneralization. The super rich (Gates and so on) account for a small portion of national income. Usually the rich save a higher portion of their income but not in the United States. Since 1980 lowest percentile income saving rates doubled while the upper percentile savings rate actually went negative recently. For whatever reason higher income people actually save less in the US.

Of course the VAT could still be combined with an income tax to get at the top earners; this is what's done in the EU. This is really important because the rich pay almost all taxes currently. The top 1% provide about 35% of federal tax revenue in the US while the bottom 50% pay just 4%. Paying the average person back 96% of what they pay in sales taxes isn't really practical. That doesn't mean VAT is a bad idea if combined with other taxes, due to it's desirable economic effects.

edit: Another advantage of the value added tax is that it rewards producers over retailers because retailers must pay the cost of all previous value additions to a product.


 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Speaking personally, I'd much rather have my money taken by government based on my habits of spending rather than my habits of working.  In other words, pay into the system for what I take out of it.

Wouldn't work. The super rich tend to horde money rather than spending it.

Hell, look at Bill Gates and Ingvar Kamprad, men famous for still flying economy class even when they each held the title of richest man on the planet.

Having money is pointless if you don't spend it to maintain a level of comfort.  Therein lies the point - the more the "rich" spend to maintain the lifestyle to which they are accustomed, the more taxes they would pay.  I'm not going to begrudge a wealthy person who maintains a middle class lifestyle and sits on their money, though one wonders what exactly the purpose a lot of zeros behind the number in your bank account would be in such a taxation scenario.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Having money is pointless if you don't spend it to maintain a level of comfort.  Therein lies the point - the more the "rich" spend to maintain the lifestyle to which they are accustomed, the more taxes they would pay.

But in American society, one of the biggest pushes out there is for no taxes. Is the problem that people would rather not pay taxes before they buy lavish goods...? I don't know, I'm posing the question.

 

Offline karajorma

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Having money is pointless if you don't spend it to maintain a level of comfort.  Therein lies the point - the more the "rich" spend to maintain the lifestyle to which they are accustomed, the more taxes they would pay.  I'm not going to begrudge a wealthy person who maintains a middle class lifestyle and sits on their money, though one wonders what exactly the purpose a lot of zeros behind the number in your bank account would be in such a taxation scenario.

$-dick waving contests mainly I suspect.

But as I said the problem is that you've removed the large tax contribution the super-rich currently make via income tax and you aren't going to replace it by sales tax simply because the super-rich can't spend money fast enough to actually make that kind of contribution.

So all this is going to do is push the burden onto less rich people and allow the super rich to wave even bigger $-penises at everyone.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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But as I said the problem is that you've removed the large tax contribution the super-rich currently make via income tax and you aren't going to replace it by sales tax simply because the super-rich can't spend money fast enough to actually make that kind of contribution.

For one, even with the various lower consumption taxes in place now, I pay roughly the same amount in those taxes as I do income tax.  Increasing the consumption tax rates and the range of things they are applied to would make up the fiscal gap quite easily (especially whne you start talking things like carbon taxation).

Also, anyone who is super-rich and actually paying significant taxes needs a new financial planner.  Most G8 countries have tax-deductible financial instruments available to anyone willing to purchase them.  Leveraging allows one to ensure that their wealth is socked away in financial instruments that also provide a tax break.  In addition, as evidenced by recent activites by both the IRS and the CRA, a fair number of the North American super-rich have serious wealth socked away in tax havens like Switzerland and the Cayman Islands.

I'm not an economist and I haven't run the precise numbers - but policy analysts all over the political spectrum believe that such a shift could legitimately work, if implemented correctly.
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Warren Buffet once commented that he pays a lower tax rate than his secretary. I'm not sure what you mean by "super-rich" Kara, but billionaires generally get a lot of their income from investments and the capital gains tax is quite low.

Quote
But as I said the problem is that you've removed the large tax contribution the super-rich currently make via income tax and you aren't going to replace it by sales tax simply because the super-rich can't spend money fast enough to actually make that kind of contribution.

Again as I said in my last post this doesn't always apply. In the US the rich spend the most.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/176462-debt-to-income-ratios-and-the-u-s-savings-rate

http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/feds/2001/200121/200121pap.pdf page 26

SAVINGS RATE BY INCOME CLASS

------------------------------------------                                       
Income class            Savings Rate 2000
------------------------------------------                                       
Highest quintile      -2.1
Fourth quintile       2.6
Middle quintile       2.9
Second quintile       7.4
Lowest quintile       7.1
------------------------------------------             

So in the particular case of the United States a sales tax on things the rich (or upper-middle class) spend money on, particularly real estate, would work quite well and would discourage the kind of **** that started the GFC.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 01:55:31 am by Mustang19 »