Author Topic: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....  (Read 26945 times)

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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
You are focusing on what the feelings are telling you, not what themselves feelings actually are. Just because the brain activity sensed by means of a catscan and the thought correlates does not mean they are one and the same.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Eagh

Are you seriously arging about the existence of abstract concepts?

Does Pi exist? How about Neper's number? Oh and what about imaginary unit?

Come to think of it, does number 1 exist?


Abstract concepts are used by cognitive processes. Cognitive processes require a physical host.


Also, here's how I define "real":

Herra Tohtori's Rule of Existence

If X interacts with reality, it is real (ie. exists on the same level as with the things it interacts with).

1st Corollary: If something interacts with reality, it can be measured in some way.

2nd Corollary: Things that do not interact with reality in any way are completely irrelevant.


Hence, everything that exists, exists. And everything that exists is real and natural. Supernatural is by definition something beyond nature, ie. does not interact with reality and is therefore irrelevant.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Mr Vega, again, I don't *care* what they *actually are*. They happen and that's that. A word will never capture it. A mathematical equation will never capture it. A metaphor will never capture it. A religious rite will never capture it. It is what it is, and that's that.

What we *can* do is understand how to manipulate it, how it works, what causes it, how can we bend it, how can we use it.

And that's the only sensible use of information on this matter. Anything else is just pompous noise (I'm referring to the souls and what not).

 
Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Thanks Herra, that was a breath of fresh air from those two debating what the definition of "is" is.

 

Offline FlamingCobra

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
This thread seems like a FlamingCobra thread. And this "Luis Dias" seems like a FlamingCobra. :blah:

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
people arguing over tiny details like this is what makes conversations like this dull and unreadable.

Eagh

Are you seriously arging about the existence of abstract concepts?

Does Pi exist? How about Neper's number? Oh and what about imaginary unit?

Come to think of it, does number 1 exist?


Abstract concepts are used by cognitive processes. Cognitive processes require a physical host.


Also, here's how I define "real":

Herra Tohtori's Rule of Existence

If X interacts with reality, it is real (ie. exists on the same level as with the things it interacts with).

1st Corollary: If something interacts with reality, it can be measured in some way.

2nd Corollary: Things that do not interact with reality in any way are completely irrelevant.


Hence, everything that exists, exists. And everything that exists is real and natural. Supernatural is by definition something beyond nature, ie. does not interact with reality and is therefore irrelevant.

nice way of putting that, i should put that into nukeism before all our scientists get impaled.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline FlamingCobra

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Basically:

Consciousness itself cannot be described using math or fundamental principles.

What causes it can.

We cannot detect other dimensions or metaphysical entities with our five senses and devices that enhance our five senses. However this does not mean they do not exist. All this means is that we do not have evidence that supports their existence at this time, and for all practical (non-scientific-and/or-technical) purposes, we can act like they do not exist.


Edit1:{If it exists, it is real.

Existence and reality are two different words for the same concept in science. In casual, everyday life, reality is a term for what we can perceive (with our senses).}

Edit2: Today, I have heard the term "Trinity" in relation to Christianity. I do not know what that means. And I used to call myself a Christian a long time ago.

For the past several months I have been a "fence sitter." I now have a term to describe what I am. "Agnostic." Technically, however, I am not an Agnostic. Though I accept the fact that we do not have evidence that proves or disproves the existence of God, I do not know whether I should believe in God or not, considering the fact that pretty much everyone around me is a Christian. Upbringing has a significant influence on people. Like me. Sometimes it's hard to let go. Especially when you consider "just in case" situations.

EDIT3: Nuke, is your real first name "Vlad" by any chance?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 07:33:08 pm by FlamingCobra »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Today, I have heard the term "Trinity" in relation to Christianity. I do not know what that means. And I used to call myself a Christian a long time ago.

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

It's pretty hard to make any kind of claim that relationship between them isn't important to Christianity. :p
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Offline FlamingCobra

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
That shows you how much of a christian I was.  :ick:

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Consciousness itself cannot be described using math or fundamental principles.

chaos theory is your friend.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Online Aardwolf

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
My, how my little tangent has grown! :D

If X interacts with reality, it is real (ie. exists on the same level as with the things it interacts with).

1st Corollary: If something interacts with reality, it can be measured in some way.

2nd Corollary: Things that do not interact with reality in any way are completely irrelevant.


Hence, everything that exists, exists. And everything that exists is real and natural. Supernatural is by definition something beyond nature, ie. does not interact with reality and is therefore irrelevant.

I approve of this  :yes:

 

Offline watsisname

Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Watisname, you can detect neutrinos by getting them to collide with hydrogen in water, causing a flash. You gain knowledge of their existence by sensory means.

That was exactly the point I was making, good job.  Now you've expanded your description of sensory means from the five senses you used originally.
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline FlamingCobra

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
.....Woman is sacred.  :nervous:


EDIT: I had to go to a funeral today. I don't see why I had to go. My mom said I was related to... whoever that guy was. I didn't know him personally. I don't like churches. Whenever I go in one I feel like I'm not supposed to be there. My heart starts to race, and it stays accelerated pretty much the whole time. I dislike the singing/hymns. I used to be a Baptist when I was a weeee liiiiiiittel kid. I had never seen those "choir robes" before except on TV/CNN whenever they showed Catholic... stuff. So when I walked in there and saw those robes, lights started going of in my head, going, CATHOLIC! CATHOLIC! CATHOLIC! But I knew the Church was Methodist. But a connection had been made. Ad I still felt like I did not belong, regardless.

I feel like an oddball whenever they make us stand up to sing because I don't know the hymns and I think they suck anyway. And all this stuff about Jesus. If God is a benevolent god, then why should you have to go to Him through Jesus? Shouldn't he accept all good people? Shouldn't it be about what kind of person you are and what you do instead of what you believe? Or is it only in the court of Man that you are judged by your actions?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 03:22:45 pm by FlamingCobra »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
You already know the answers to those questions.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
And all this stuff about Jesus. If God is a benevolent god, then why should you have to go to Him through Jesus? Shouldn't he accept all good people? Shouldn't it be about what kind of person you are and what you do instead of what you believe? Or is it only in the court of Man that you are judged by your actions?


There are far more troublesome things in soteriology than that.

Like, you know, why the whole thing with incarnated aspect of God was required to die by slowly suffocating in a horrifyingly agonizing manner and how that act of brutality is supposed to abolish us of our sins simply if we believe so.

Even if I believed in the divine as a concept I wouldn't buy that. At all. Of course that bit is among the more lucid parts of the things credited to the same being. My personal top 10 WTF moments in Judao-Christian scripture include, in not any particular order:



0. Creating the Universe (This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move)

1. Creating a species of sociopaths without ability to separate Good from Evil.

2. Banishing said species into life of suffering and perpetual sin because of half illegitimately, half by accident gaining said knowledge due to actions of a snake, while "condemning" the snake to the fate of forever crawling on the ground on its belly (one must ask, what kind of snake was this if it did not already crawl on the ground on its belly).

3. Banishing a good portion of rebellious staff members along with their leader (previously God's second-in-command, Lucifer) in a War in Heaven.

4. -Flooding the entire world because
A) humanity was being uppity about behaving like God wanted and
B) the rebels cast out of heaven (Grigori, or Watchers, or Fallen Angels) had mingled with humans and produced hybrid offspring (Nephilim)
...and saving supposedly one human family (inbreeding and incest never seemed to be much of an issue in God's eyes) along with a single pair of all the other non-aquatic animals on Earth, and afterwards forming a covenant with remaining humanity to never do it again (and introducing a new physics feature, light refraction, to make rainbows happen)

5. Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (the method was actually quite awesome, but the reasons for it were not)

6. Trolling Abraham to almost slaughter his heir as a ritual sacrifice (which raises the question, how often did people sacrifice humans to God at this point anyway...)

7. Sending his Chosen People to Egypt (to save them from a famine that, arguably, God could have prevented, with full knowledge that they would be "enslaved" in there few centuries afterwards

8. Getting his Chosen People out of Egypt only to send them to a "Promised Land" already inhabited by other people (who, of course, were to be driven away or destroyed because they were not God's chosen people. The question arises, wouldn't there have been room for everyone, and what was so special about the "Promised Land". Also during this operation Exodus, he decided it would be a good idea to give his Chosen People a huge set of more or less arbitrary and nonsensical rules for his Chosen People to obey, without explanations or room for questioning them

9. After a few thousand years of sinful humans having to determine the fate of their souls presumably by their actions in life, God probably got fed up that people still weren't meeting his standards and decided to divide himself up into three parts, one of which he sent to be incarnated as a human, with a plan to suffer an excruciating death (which I consider to be a huge dick move since the primary personality of God wasn't really involved in the suffering, only the Son part did that allegedly) as part of God's plan to salvage the souls of the damned. Or something.

10. Finally, the alleged plan for the end of the world as relayed through vivid hallucinations probably triggered by some psychoactive substances: Apparently, God has imprisoned a mighty monster in another plane of existence (some sources claim this to be the cast-out Lucifer in a form of Dragon, some call it Leviathan, some call it Satan or the Devil, and it should be noted that equating Lucifer as the Devil is not necessarily the only interpretation though it tends to be the most common these days), from which it will eventually escape and conquer the world for some time, before Jesus returns to Earth to liberate it from the monster's iron grip, only for the world to end with all deceased persons suddenly coming to life again, which would pretty much be a zombie apocalypse...

* Herra Tohtori puts on sunglasses

...of biblical proportions.


YEEEAAAHHHHHHH
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
i kinda like where this is going.
And very well played Herra.  :)

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
0. Creating the Universe (This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move)

Ahem - credit where credit is due, good sir.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
i still believe that, if god exists, it is mankind's collective duty to depose him.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

  

Offline Mongoose

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Not to rain on a tiny portion of Herra's fun little Biblical literalist romp, but the doctrine of the Trinity traditionally states that the three persons of God remain one in nature, so it was God's true personhood suffering on that cross.  In addition, the persons of the Trinity are held to be equally eternal, so it's not some matter of God snapping his fingers and cutting off a slice of Jesus (boy that's a fun image) to head to Earth.  Do carry on with the sunglasses, though. :p

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Not to rain on a tiny portion of Herra's fun little Biblical literalist romp, but the doctrine of the Trinity traditionally states that the three persons of God remain one in nature

True for Catholicism, but not for all other Christian denominations.  A number of Protestant branches do not recognize the Catholic version of the Trinity.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]