Author Topic: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....  (Read 26941 times)

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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Watisname, you can detect neutrinos by getting them to collide with hydrogen in water, causing a flash. You gain knowledge of their existence by sensory means.

That was exactly the point I was making, good job.  Now you've expanded your description of sensory means from the five senses you used originally.
You see the flash by sight. Use of one of the five senses is still required.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Not to rain on a tiny portion of Herra's fun little Biblical literalist romp, but the doctrine of the Trinity traditionally states that the three persons of God remain one in nature, so it was God's true personhood suffering on that cross.  In addition, the persons of the Trinity are held to be equally eternal, so it's not some matter of God snapping his fingers and cutting off a slice of Jesus (boy that's a fun image) to head to Earth.  Do carry on with the sunglasses, though. :p

still i dont view this kinda thing as an actual sacrifice for the people and their sins. for an immortal entity which by definition can not die, such a torturous demise would actually produce some form of entertainment from the otherwise monotonous existence of an immortal, sorta like a cosmic pain fetish or something. how does the immortal offspring of an immortal being getting his jollies from a little bit of mortal torture-murder help save us from evil and make us immortal?

it makes more sense that hey-sus is just your typical cult leader in it for the power of having people worship everything that they say and do and embellish the **** out of it to bring in others into their fold. this demotes hey-sus and his followers from son of god and his disciples to a zeroth century charlie manson and his family. way i see it its just another group of hippies of another empire, protesting the establishment, taking hallucinogenic substances, questioning authority and so on. look how many cults were formed back around the 60s (for example, the church of satan). apply the same thing on a superstitious roman era population and the effect is multiplied.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Not to rain on a tiny portion of Herra's fun little Biblical literalist romp, but the doctrine of the Trinity traditionally states that the three persons of God remain one in nature

True for Catholicism, but not for all other Christian denominations.  A number of Protestant branches do not recognize the Catholic version of the Trinity.
Hey, don't look at me, they were the ones who decided to nail a paper to the door and change the rules just because. :p

 

Offline watsisname

Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Watisname, you can detect neutrinos by getting them to collide with hydrogen in water, causing a flash. You gain knowledge of their existence by sensory means.

That was exactly the point I was making, good job.  Now you've expanded your description of sensory means from the five senses you used originally.
You see the flash by sight. Use of one of the five senses is still required.

Sure, this is valid if we consider any form detection of EM waves, despite the type of detector, as an extension of one of our five senses, namely vision.  However, if we go with that then what makes thought any different?  Despite our limited understanding of the details of cognition, we can decipher quite a lot about thought through the use of fMRI and the like.

There is also still the option of defining 'what is real' to be anything that can affect or be affected by other things in detectable ways.  Herra mentioned this, too.  This definition is nice because it works for neutrinos just as much as it does for thought, and it also provides an effective criterion for determining if various 'supernatural' phenomenon are 'real' or not.
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I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Not to rain on a tiny portion of Herra's fun little Biblical literalist romp...

Biblical literalism considers all that is said in the Bible to be an accurate and exact description of what happened. I don't think that is sensible in any context. Thus my critique is more of the events themselves rather than how they were supposedly achieved.

Note that I intentionally skipped all the objections about how something (seemingly impossible) was done - such as packing all the land animals in a single ark, a patent impossibility in itself - and tried to concentrate more on the reasons God supposedly had for doing all these things. The Flood is another impossibility, but I'm willing to assume that it just happened, and inspect the effects it had, and why it was done, and I find it unacceptable with these merits alone.

The how is but a function following the what, and what God did in most of these cases is either inexcusably cruel, or plain acts of a madman.


And yeah, I am aware that now someone will bring up God's superior morality and claiming whatever God does is automatically good and right by definition of being an act of god. To which I reply with a slightly modified quote from a source you should by all means recognize (if not, look it up):

"You've made yourself judge, jury, and if necessary executioner. By what right have you appointed yourself to this position?"
"Superior morality."
"Yes. I recall how you used your superior morality when we first encountered you. You put us on trial for the crimes of humanity."
"The jury is still out on that, make no mistake."
"Your arrogant pretence at being the moral guardian of the universe strikes me as being hollow, God. I see no evidence that you are guided by a superior moral code, or any code whatsoever. You may be nearly omnipotent, and I don't deny that your parlour tricks are very impressive, but morality? I don't see it. I don't acknowledge it, God. I would put human morality against the God's any day. And perhaps that's the reason that we fascinate you so. Because our puny behaviour shows you a glimmer of the one thing that evades your omnipotence, a moral centre."


Quote
...but the doctrine of the Trinity traditionally states that the three persons of God remain one in nature, so it was God's true personhood suffering on that cross.  In addition, the persons of the Trinity are held to be equally eternal, so it's not some matter of God snapping his fingers and cutting off a slice of Jesus (boy that's a fun image) to head to Earth.  Do carry on with the sunglasses, though. :p

Well, the fact of the matter is that first mentions of Father, Son and Holy Spirit come into the scripture comparatively late and by that time God had multiple times referred to himself simply as "I Am" (sounds familiar with pantheistic overconsciousness to me, but other aspects of this particular God sort of speak against that interpretation). No mention about existing in specifically three different aspects, but a singular entity that just is.

Moreover, Jesus didn't seem to think so, as he directed his thoughts in spoken form to his Father multiple times according to the written record (however dubious): Most well known (and, IMHO, most important) would be these I guess (not literal, but CBA to look up the exact verses):

1. Father, if it's possible, take this burden away from me.
2. Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.
3. Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?*


At the very least, it seems apparent that Jesus was speaking to a separate personality who consciously chose to remain separate from the entity sent to Earth, thus avoiding the actual experience. It's possible that they merged again after Jesus was airlifted to heavens above, but then it remains a question why the whole concept of trinity is still valid in any way (more valid would be to consider that God can take any form it wishes - sometimes I wonder why Burning Bush is not counted among the apparitions of God, but I guess trinity sound a lot better as a word than quaternity. Also Burning Bush sort of breaks the litany... In the name of Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Burning Bush doesn't sound nearly as convincing as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

One thing should be said about christianity - it's makers really knew their show business inside out. As a people management exercise it is a rather impressive one - from an obscure cult to the biggest (albeit fractured) religion in the Earth in less than 2000 years? It is an impressive feat, no matter what my personal thoughts about the content of said religion are.

Too bad they basically chose to use their power over people to dominate, oppress and condemn them rather than just giving nonjudgmental guidance. And meddling with secular power is something no religion should ever do, it tends to ruin the whole concept.


*I know quite well it's a direct quote from earlier book, but I think it is still relevant to consider Jesus meant just what he said rather than simply making an obscure reference to earlier scripture.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 06:45:45 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Quote
One thing should be said about christianity - it's makers really knew their show business inside out. As a people management exercise it is a rather impressive one - from an obscure cult to the biggest (albeit fractured) religion in the Earth in less than 2000 years? It is an impressive feat, no matter what my personal thoughts about the content of said religion are.

That might just mostly be because of the Roman influences. Chrstianity was adapted for the Roman Empire by Constantine.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
i always considered christianity to be the last ditch attempt to save the roman empire from decay and its inevitable collapse. we all know how that turned out.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
i always considered christianity to be the last ditch attempt to save the roman empire from decay and its inevitable collapse. we all know how that turned out.


I'm also inclined to believe that whatever Constantine's personal beliefs were, the adoption of Christianity as state belief was done primarily for political reasons. He may have been a legit believer, but he was first and foremost a statesman. I suspect he wanted to install empire-wide unified clergy, and he just happened to have convenient ties to a relatively new religion; his mother was a christian. Constantine himself was only baptized shortly before his death, though he did advertise himself as a christian.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Did Herra just quoted TNG as an argument here? roflmao

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
The part about Christianity that compells me the most nowadays is that you could easily rip off "Genesis" and use it to write a cool transhumanist sci-fi novel...

... you know... all that forbidden knowledge (creating AIs/superintelligences?) and being thrown out of Eden (the real universe?) crap ;)


If processing power really would become so ubiquitous to allow the simulation of entire civilizations then the notion of a "Dickhead" God "just messing around" and "losing interest later" suddenly also becomes plausible - if not in our Universe then certainly in the ones we may eventually create ourselves once we reach our technological singularity event.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 09:10:21 am by Mikes »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Yeah Mikes, I wouldn't mind you derailing the current conversation towards that stuff. Very intriguing as a concept really.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Did Herra just quoted TNG as an argument here? roflmao

Yes
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Offline The E

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
The part about Christianity that compells me the most nowadays is that you could easily rip off "Genesis" and use it to write a cool transhumanist sci-fi novel...

... you know... all that forbidden knowledge (creating AIs/superintelligences?) and being thrown out of Eden (the real universe?) crap ;)


If processing power really would become so ubiquitous to allow the simulation of entire civilizations then the notion of a "Dickhead" God "just messing around" and "losing interest later" suddenly also becomes plausible - if not in our Universe then certainly in the ones we may eventually create ourselves once we reach our technological singularity event.

There's a reason why one of the nicknames of the Singularity concept is "Rapture of the Nerds".
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Mikes

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
There's a reason why one of the nicknames of the Singularity concept is "Rapture of the Nerds".

Under the assumption that there won't be any hard limits to technological progress it's also a somewhat plausible outcome.
(Course "plausible" may turn out to be as plausible as spaceflight by aiming a cannon at the moon.)

I wonder if any theologian ever pondered how God - assuming he exists - would deal with a post singularity civilization. Considering the trouble he supposedly had with a single tribe of pesky humans early on, he may be a little out of his depth. ;) Especially if it turns out the universe was a birthday present from his parents...

 

Offline FlamingCobra

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Not to rain on a tiny portion of Herra's fun little Biblical literalist romp, but the doctrine of the Trinity traditionally states that the three persons of God remain one in nature

True for Catholicism, but not for all other Christian denominations.  A number of Protestant branches do not recognize the Catholic version of the Trinity.

I was always taught that Jesus and God were not the same and that Jesus was the Son of God. Two totally separate things. Jesus =/= Incarnation of God. All that **** is Catholic junk.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Watisname, you can detect neutrinos by getting them to collide with hydrogen in water, causing a flash. You gain knowledge of their existence by sensory means.

That was exactly the point I was making, good job.  Now you've expanded your description of sensory means from the five senses you used originally.
You see the flash by sight. Use of one of the five senses is still required.

Sure, this is valid if we consider any form detection of EM waves, despite the type of detector, as an extension of one of our five senses, namely vision.  However, if we go with that then what makes thought any different?  Despite our limited understanding of the details of cognition, we can decipher quite a lot about thought through the use of fMRI and the like.

There is also still the option of defining 'what is real' to be anything that can affect or be affected by other things in detectable ways.  Herra mentioned this, too.  This definition is nice because it works for neutrinos just as much as it does for thought, and it also provides an effective criterion for determining if various 'supernatural' phenomenon are 'real' or not.
So you are designating the production of thoughts in the mind, be they images, recalls, or abstract, as falling under the category of something that is "sensed". A sixth sense, apparently. I am challenging this. At least on a surface level, thoughts cannot be classified as sensory data. Any material object, no matter how far removed from ordinary experience, still has to involve some use of the five senses to be detected. UV light can be sensed by looking at photographic plate, or by feeling the affect of a sunburn, but still one of the five is involved regardless. Can you say the same for thoughts? The very obvious answer is no. You need a better argument to convince me otherwise.

And as for the correlation argument you use with MRI scans, that the scans correlate with thought is irrelevant. That they correlate does not mean that they are the same. I do not understand why you place senses on a pedastal, and ignore internal thoughts, when they are equally real. Even an ultra empiricist like Hume criticized correlation arguments.

And I never used the word supernatural.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 03:01:53 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
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No, it isn't. It makes "total skepticism" possible, but this possibility is also meaningless to me, since I was never interested in the "absolute truth" in the first place. We live in our empirical reality and we form our theories in this world, about it and nothing else.
Like it or not, not everyone is an instrumentalist or pragmatist, and those who aren't, aren't all as stupid and delusional as you make them out to be.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 03:09:37 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

  

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Quote
No, it isn't. It makes "total skepticism" possible, but this possibility is also meaningless to me, since I was never interested in the "absolute truth" in the first place. We live in our empirical reality and we form our theories in this world, about it and nothing else.
Like it or not, not everyone is an instrumentalist or pragmatist, and those who aren't, aren't all as stupid and delusional as you make them out to be.

Idealism is great. I love it. I love the sheer chaos that it usually brings, the smell of revolution in the morning.

Yet, all that is poetry in action. If you are willing to concede that God is a poetic character, then we will be alright. If however you are on to proclaim the truth of his existence as a fact, as something that even trasncends reality as we are here describing it, I must say that you are indeed delusional, although not stupid (since I've seen amazingly intelligent people falling into the same trap, it mustn't be a question of intelligence).

To me God has always been a teleological moral dream, like the ultimate muse. It need not to exist in any other place than in men's hearts as a "call". It's the ultimate romantical figure that "saves us" from our "materialistic doom", from death. It tries to do this by inspiring a supernatural way of thinking. A way of thinking that trasncends the egotistical genes and the "fake" altruism that abounds in us.

It is a revolutionary way of thinking. And I don't mind that bit at all. Like I said, I love idealism, it shatters the world and crushes all status quos.

For instance, I myself am an idealistic anti-theist. I really do believe that we cannot base our romantic bursts with bronze age myths with its obsolete moralities and barbaric tropes, and what I see in the middle east happening with the population, specially the women and the kids is like a punch to the stomach. I hate it. With all my heart.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Herra, I'd try banging out a response to you, since I think you're going off on a few wrong tangents with some of the points you made, at least when viewed in light of how traditional Christian doctrine treats them, but I can't say I'm really in a mood to do so.  It's much more fun to keep sitting back and munching popcorn at where this is going, anyway. :p

(But just for the sake of doing so, the "burning bush" was never viewed as some distinct person of God, in the same way that the Trinity represents that.  Instead, you could more properly view it as God manifesting himself in some physical form to Moses.  This happens multiple times in the Bible; the Holy Spirit is traditionally associated with a roaring wind and "tongues of fire," so it's very similar imagery.)

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: On religion, atheism and changing thread titles....
Watisname, you can detect neutrinos by getting them to collide with hydrogen in water, causing a flash. You gain knowledge of their existence by sensory means.

That was exactly the point I was making, good job.  Now you've expanded your description of sensory means from the five senses you used originally.
You see the flash by sight. Use of one of the five senses is still required.

Sure, this is valid if we consider any form detection of EM waves, despite the type of detector, as an extension of one of our five senses, namely vision.  However, if we go with that then what makes thought any different?  Despite our limited understanding of the details of cognition, we can decipher quite a lot about thought through the use of fMRI and the like.

There is also still the option of defining 'what is real' to be anything that can affect or be affected by other things in detectable ways.  Herra mentioned this, too.  This definition is nice because it works for neutrinos just as much as it does for thought, and it also provides an effective criterion for determining if various 'supernatural' phenomenon are 'real' or not.
So you are designating the production of thoughts in the mind, be they images, recalls, or abstract, as falling under the category of something that is "sensed". A sixth sense, apparently. I am challenging this. At least on a surface level, thoughts cannot be classified as sensory data. Any material object, no matter how far removed from ordinary experience, still has to involve some use of the five senses to be detected. UV light can be sensed by looking at photographic plate, or by feeling the affect of a sunburn, but still one of the five is involved regardless. Can you say the same for thoughts? The very obvious answer is no. You need a better argument to convince me otherwise.

And as for the correlation argument you use with MRI scans, that the scans correlate with thought is irrelevant. That they correlate does not mean that they are the same. I do not understand why you place senses on a pedastal, and ignore internal thoughts, when they are equally real. Even an ultra empiricist like Hume criticized correlation arguments.

And I never used the word supernatural.

By that logic quantum particles don't exist for you either... I guess. I mean, brain activity is actually measurable... while several quantum particles exist in theory, but can not be reliably measured at all lol.

Seriously... measuring brain activity isn't even the bleeding edge anymore as far as physics go...  I mean heck... we're already seeing the first gadgets that can be controlled by concentrated thought.... so with respect.... uh: Pfffffft!? ;)