[Manuel70]

Hello,

I have two distinct problems:

1) I really need to know how to reset the FreeSpace Open Installer v2.1.7 !
2) On my pc it doesn't download MV_Assets (it remains stuck on waiting ...)

I've tried to add things that i don't want hoping to "unlock" MV_Assets but it won't download.
So i've deleted the target folder to start from scratch but now it remembers all my previous selections

I REALLY NEED to reset it in order to start a clean installation.
All previous selected options (except my_assets that wont download) are greyed and i don't want them all !!!

Pls help


edit: found a file fsoinstaller.properties in c:\users\<myname> and deleted !
but the MV_Assets problem remains

edit(2): MV_Assets downloaded...

[Manuel70]

It would be very helpful a command line option to avoid loading of 'fsoinstaller.properties'
and is advisable to reset properties if the target folder is not found (now disabled checkboxes are checked by default).

Thank you !!!

[Charismatic]

I cant seem to locate a program that opens the installer *.JAR file?

[General Battuta]

As the website indicates you need to have Java installed. Just follow the link below the installer download link.

[Goober5000]

With RC3, remove. I'm assuming the Installer downloads that executable by default? So no one will install an older "stable" version and crash?

The installer will download whatever executables are provided by the mod designer.  For the SCP, those are the 3.7.0 Final build and the 3.7.2 RC3 build.  The Steam support forums are full of recommendations to use RC3.

So I just bought and downloaded the Freespace 2 form Gog.com.  The question I have is in the instructions it says to use this file: (viz. setup_freespace2_2.0.0.8.exe).  My filename just says setup_freespace2_2.0.0.8.exe  Is there any problem since I did not use the Gog.com downloader?

Viz. is an abbreviation that means "namely" or "specifically", just like i.e. means "in other words" and e.g. means "for example".

For Steam users, when removing this 'Move install' button, we may want to add some support to replace the binaries a bit.  Steam is hardcoded to launch 'Freespace2.exe', but many users are replacing that with the Launcher or the fs2_open_*.exe file.  We might consider an option to replace the Freespace2.exe with the launcher to be built in to the FSO Installer, as a helper for the Steam users.

Or, the installer could create shortcuts.  Since the installer installs new binaries, I'm not sure how easy it is to for many users to notice that they need to run the new Launcher and not just run the existing shortcuts installed by the game, or the Steam shortcut, etc.

Is there a way to add custom shortcuts to Steam when you install a mod for a game?  Maybe the Installer could do something like that?  Although just some new Desktop/Start Menu shortcuts might be universally useful if there aren't any added yet.

I don't think this is a good idea.  In the first place, we shouldn't be replacing files, especially since a primary selling point for FSO and our mods is that the existing installation remains unchanged.  In the second place, creating shortcuts requires messing around with the Windows API, which is fairly difficult in Java and not applicable for OSX or Linux anyway.

It would be very helpful a command line option to avoid loading of 'fsoinstaller.properties'
and is advisable to reset properties if the target folder is not found (now disabled checkboxes are checked by default).

Thank you !!!

The "Re-run installation for mods that are already installed and up to date" checkbox was already added to the Installer to handle your specific situation.

[Manuel70]

The "Re-run installation for mods that are already installed and up to date" checkbox was already added to the Installer to handle your specific situation.

I had a lot of problems with this checkbox cause after deleting the destination folder when i tried to reinstall the package from scratch it was not possible without reinstalling ALL previously selected options !

[jr2]

I think the Installer just checks the files that already exist to be sure they are not corrupted when that checkbox is ticked, and it also uses network to do that.

This probably causes the confusion.

At least, that's my understanding, yes?


Oh, and Goober, I know they are full of recommendations. But ease of end user experience is what we're trying for, right? I know it's ridonkulous, but there are plenty of computer illiterate people who start going hazy if they have to do more than click "play" (I think cause they are panicking or fretting instead of reasoning through what they are doing logically cause "ZOMG what if I crash my computer and have to buy a new one!"

To these people, even having to choose 3.7.0 or 3.7.2 RC3 will be a miniature crisis for them. 

Although, the optimum answer to that conundrum would be walkthroughs with pictures, hmm... 

[X3N0-Life-Form]

I think the Installer just checks the files that already exist to be sure they are not corrupted when that checkbox is ticked, and it also uses network to do that.

This probably causes the confusion.

At least, that's my understanding, yes?

My understanding is that if you do an install, then delete it & reinstall Freespace in the name folder, the installer doesn't know it's a whole new install.
What that means (as I understand it), is that you can't reselect stuff that was previously installed. The checkbox will make the installer recheck & redownload when necessary, which means it will try to redownload everything that the installer think is supposed to be installed, say for instance FSO exe, 2014 mediavps, 3612 MVP, FS port + STR, JAD, VsD, WoD & Inferno, while ideally you would like the installer to only focus on getting back the exe & 2014 MVP.

[Goober5000]

Oh, and Goober, I know they are full of recommendations. But ease of end user experience is what we're trying for, right? I know it's ridonkulous, but there are plenty of computer illiterate people who start going hazy if they have to do more than click "play" (I think cause they are panicking or fretting instead of reasoning through what they are doing logically cause "ZOMG what if I crash my computer and have to buy a new one!"

To these people, even having to choose 3.7.0 or 3.7.2 RC3 will be a miniature crisis for them. 

Although, the optimum answer to that conundrum would be walkthroughs with pictures, hmm...

I composed a rather rude reply and then deleted it.  What I will say instead is that yes, I designed the FSO Installer for ease of use -- but like any problem, it is subject to diminishing returns.  The Installer is already extremely easy to use, and it gets harder and harder to squeeze more usability out of it the more usable it is.  And there are a number of other projects on HLP that I'm responsible for that I haven't been able to work on since the beginning of the year.  In particular, I need to triage a bunch of bugs for the 3.7.2 release candidate process.

And yes, as I said in a previous post, it would be very useful to have an updated tutorial.  That could clarify some things that new users would be looking for.  And users who aren't willing to read very simple step-by-step processes may be open to watching a video on YouTube.  Of course, some people will never be satisfied until you come into their house and install it for them.

My understanding is that if you do an install, then delete it & reinstall Freespace in the name folder, the installer doesn't know it's a whole new install.
What that means (as I understand it), is that you can't reselect stuff that was previously installed. The checkbox will make the installer recheck & redownload when necessary, which means it will try to redownload everything that the installer think is supposed to be installed, say for instance FSO exe, 2014 mediavps, 3612 MVP, FS port + STR, JAD, VsD, WoD & Inferno, while ideally you would like the installer to only focus on getting back the exe & 2014 MVP.

Correct.

It is theoretically possible to create a button that will sync the installed mods to the checkboxes on the installer, but without the HTTP range seek feature, it would brutally murder achtung's bandwidth.  (It would more than double the already severe strain on the mirrors.)  With HTTP range seeking, it should be much more reasonable, but that would need to be tested.


EDIT: As a clarification, the HTTP range seeking is currently on my priority list.  That should resolve a lot of pressure on achtung's servers and it's a prerequisite for future features in any case.

[General Battuta]

.  What I will say instead is that yes, I designed the FSO Installer for ease of use -- but like any problem, it is subject to diminishing returns.  The Installer is already extremely easy to use, and it gets harder and harder to squeeze more usability out of it the more usable it is.

I think this is worth flagging for discussion. Eliminating small frictions is actually one of the best ways to improve user experience, especially in terms of work-to-reward ratio. A simple example is changing an option from 'opt in required' to 'opt out required', or eliminating one confusing choice or dialog box from a bootflow. In many cases, the more usable a product becomes, the easier it is to squeeze more usability out of it - since the changes required are very small but the payoff is large.

[Goober5000]

I think this is worth flagging for discussion. Eliminating small frictions is actually one of the best ways to improve user experience, especially in terms of work-to-reward ratio. A simple example is changing an option from 'opt in required' to 'opt out required', or eliminating one confusing choice or dialog box from a bootflow. In many cases, the more usable a product becomes, the easier it is to squeeze more usability out of it - since the changes required are very small but the payoff is large.

You appear to be under the mistaken impression that small frictions are correlated with small changes.  The feature in question, this "sync fsoinstaller.properties to current mods" button, would undoubtedly improve the user experience.  But it would also require a significant amount of code to implement.  More importantly, without using the HTTP range capability, it would absolutely kill the bandwidth of the mod mirrors.  These are non-trivial problems with non-trivial solutions.

We already talked about the situation that you describe on the previous page when I asked whether the "copy installation" option should be removed from the dialog box.

[General Battuta]

I'm not advocating specifically for the sync to current mods button - I understand there's a lot of engineering to be done there.

The conversation you mention on the previous page is a great example of removing a small friction.

[jr2]

Oh, and Goober, I know they are full of recommendations. But ease of end user experience is what we're trying for, right? I know it's ridonkulous, but 

I composed a rather rude reply and then deleted it. 

:/ I didn't mean it that way.  I was just trying to explain in a frank way how many people simply don't get it. Like they have no clue. Dunno why, it's not that complicated.  They are literally afraid of their computers, or at least of damaging them somehow.  Fear of the unknown, I guess. To them is a magical box.  I'm not saying that you're obligated to make it easier for them, I'm trying to say that for the  technicalogically adept here, what seems like crossing the street is to the rest of the people  -  a trek in the  wilds of the Amazon rain forest.

Again, not that you're obligated to fix it, I just know it's easy to forget and think that it's really not that hard so why bother fixing what isn't broken. But if it's a matter of priorities, yeah I know it's not all-important, I wasn't trying to imply that it was.

Err..  Did that clear up what I was trying to say?

[Goober5000]

Yeah, don't worry.  I'm just frustrated that the more I hold people's hands, the more hand-holding they seem to need.

[jr2]

That might actually be a good sign - it might be not that more hand holding is needed, but that those who need more hand holding are actually willing to try now.  You're bringing in the huddled masses of space combat sim users in from the cold. 

[Rodo]

I get Goober's feelings. There's nothing more frustrating that wanting to finish something only to discover you are required to work more on it, and getting ppl asking for stuff vaguely described. Also design work (user interface and all that) is probably one of those things that he hates, I do hate it myself!

I'd suggest everyone talking about ease of use to give the installer a spin (If you haven't already) and then come with fully developed ideas, with maybe example images of your proposed changes to the interface and specific requests, not just a few words about the problem you spotted and how you think it might be solved.
You'd be surprised how willing a dev can be when you present an error, and propose a solution for him with almost every aspect already thought through.

Just my two cents. Of course all of this only if Goob approves.

[Goober5000]

That's a good plan.  An even better plan is to propose patches, like m!m and jg18 already have.

[olifiers]

Goober, this is just epic. EPIC. Thanks for the awesome installer, sir! =D

[Goober5000]

You're welcome.  Glad you like it.

[chief1983]

Just had a thought Goober - a Donate button in the install process