[General Battuta]

There's an issue here that has nothing to do with the ban, and Andreas was right to object to it. The E's first post all but calls Andreas a Holocaust denier, which is basically equivalent to calling him a card-carrying Neo-Nazi. It's a profoundly serious condemnation and should be treated as such. By Andreas' own admission, he made "insensitive jokes" for immature reasons. That isn't in dispute. But it is not equivalent to denying the Holocaust, as E implied. And even if Andreas had held that position at the time, he doesn't now. Either way, unless the situation is profoundly different than it seems, calling Andreas a "Holocaust denier" was inappropriate.

How exactly would you characterize the claim that only a million people died in the Holocaust?

[Fusion]

OP, serious question. What is your opinion of The Turner Diaries? I have a hard time believing that someone in deep enough to read and recommend The Turner Diaries would be able to make a full turnaround in a year. I guess it is possible, but I, personally...I dunno, I guess it just gives me bad vibes.

I understand the concerns about eternal damnation for temporary sins. But I do also think that it's right to draw a hard line around certain behavior, and distributing Turner Diaries bootlegs is in the camp of full-on advocacy and evangelism for anti-Semitism.

For whatever it's worth I do think it is good that you have publicly repudiated Holocaust denial.

Cannot tell if 4chan user or redditor - that said, anything that, keyword could, be gained from reading the Turner Diaries is completely wiped out by the sheer ludicrousness of the book. Even ignoring who wrote it and the ideology he was seeking to promulgate, it's just, well... bad. "Oh yeah this guy joins the resistance and becomes part of a super secret cabal and he and he alone can save people from the enemy" is one of the dumbest plots for a book I have ever met, clearly painting the main character as the writer's Gary Stu with more vim and vigor than Fifty Shades of Grey's Anastasia. There are better survivalist books, there are better fictional books - there are better books in general than this piece of white power fapfiction, and again, that's excluding the fact the guy who wrote it was founder of the National Alliance neo-Nazi group and the most prominent white nationalist up to the time of his death.

tl;dr 2/10 would not recommend reading. Additionally, it is worth pointing out that as early as April 30th of 2019, the same day the jokes and attempt to rile people up(I believe the word I used was 'troll'), I stated in the same location that I truly believed six million Jews had died in the Holocaust. Which means that this ban is for something not a year old, not a year and a half old, but nearly 2 years old that's had nothing happen.

[xenocartographer]

How exactly would you characterize the claim that only a million people died in the Holocaust?

Holocaust denial.

[Nightmare]

If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism".

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.

[General Battuta]

Cannot tell if 4chan user or redditor

Child, we made 4chan.

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.

Nazis should be punched in the face and this statement should be welcome on any platform run by decent people.

[Fusion]

Nazis should be punched in the face and this statement should be welcome on any platform run by decent people.

Inquiry to determine whether this is a potential double standard or not - does this mean that the statement "commies should be punched in the face" or "punching commies is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places" should be welcome on any platform run by decent people?

[Rhymes]

If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism".

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.

Punching Nazis is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places.

Inquiry to determine whether this is a potential double standard or not - does this mean that the statement "commies should be punched in the face" should be welcome on any platform run by decent people?

No because communism does not advocate genocide as a core tenet of its ideology. Nazism does. Very simple.

[General Battuta]

Nazis should be punched in the face and this statement should be welcome on any platform run by decent people.

Inquiry to determine whether this is a potential double standard or not - does this mean that the statement "commies should be punched in the face" or "punching commies is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places" should be welcome on any platform run by decent people?

I don't know. Stalinists and Maoists, maybe.

[Nightmare]

If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism".

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.

Punching Nazis is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places.

Guys. We're not talking about banning nazi-assholes from HLP what is a must have (but requires proper evidence) but promoting political violence IRL.

[Rhymes]

Guys. We're not talking about banning nazi-assholes from HLP what is a must have (but requires proper evidence) but promoting political violence IRL.

Punching Nazis should be encouraged at all times and in all places.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Guys. We're not talking about banning nazi-assholes from HLP what is a must have (but requires proper evidence) but promoting political violence IRL.

IRL, Nazis should be punched in the face.

EDIT: Whoops, I just realized I forgot to convey any of my thoughts on, you know, the point of this thread here instead of just on Discord, so:

There are certain things that it doesn't matter where you said them or why—they cross a line and there must be consequences. "Pretending to be a nazi to troll someone" is functionally indistinguishable from "being a nazi". "Ironic antisemitism" is still antisemitism. I can't read your mind; I don't know if you were kidding or not. For all I know, you did mean those things, and just realized that you couldn't admit to such without suffering social consequences, like Schrödinger's Douchebag.

What I do know is that I've never once "jokingly" or "accidentally" denied the holocaust. Ever. In my entire life. And you never once denied saying those things. So while I don't know why you said them, I do know that you said them, and anybody who will do that is not somebody I can tolerate on the HLP Discord.

[xenocartographer]

Hey, everyone, let's not descend into squabbling about political labels. They mean different things to different people, and arguing based on them is unlikely to be productive from any perspective!

e: Er, referring to "Communist," not "Nazi"...

[Fusion]

If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism".

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.

Punching Nazis is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places.

Guys. We're not talking about banning nazi-assholes from HLP what is a must have (but requires proper evidence) but promoting political violence IRL.

Not going to lie, if their concept for promotion of physical violence is to specifically target any sort of political ideology, regardless of said ideology's innate abhorrent tenets, then by the definition of "political violence,"¹ Battuta and Rhymes would have promoted such.

That said, admittedly this is getting a bit off topic regarding my issues with being banned from the Discord for having insensitively joked nearly 2 years ago on a discord that's not the HLP discord, with nothing having happened prior to yesterday regarding said insensitive jokes as I continued to contribute to the community.

1: https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/political-violence

[Nightmare]

Hey, everyone, let's not descend into squabbling about political labels. They mean different things to different people, and arguing based on them is unlikely to be productive from any perspective!

e: Er, referring to "Communist," not "Nazi"...

I wasn't talking about labeling anybody, I've got better things to do than that. Promoting political violence is an outright crime in all civilized countries, and ironically one of the reasons Nazis are rightfully being hated for.

[xenocartographer]

No, I'm sorry, it felt like there was going to be an argument about what defining "Communist," and I was trying to to head that off, but the discussion had already moved on.

[Phantom Hoover]

For the record, since there’s a lot of confusion into which Andras is injecting misinformation:

1) All the events discussed took place in an unofficial ‘HLP politics’ discord, started by Mito* after politics was banned from the official HLP discord. It was populated entirely by active HLP members. You can call it ‘offsite drama’, but it wasn’t exactly far offsite.

2) Andreas spent hours arguing, in some detail, that the Holocaust killed 1/5th as many Jews as the historical consensus says and that their populations recovered quickly afterwards. He only started claiming that this was a ‘joke’ to ‘troll’ us days later.

3) He did, in fairness, say that the Turner Diaries was 60% puerile nonsense when he linked a bootleg PDF and told us to see for ourselves. He also said that the other 40% was good commentary on the ‘decadence’ of contemporary Western society. You may notice a numerical theme emerging here.

*Mito had nothing to do with any of these views and I feel the need to say so explicitly.

[Fusion]

There are certain things that it doesn't matter where you said them or why—they cross a line and there must be consequences. "Pretending to be a nazi to troll someone" is functionally indistinguishable from "being a nazi". "Ironic antisemitism" is still antisemitism. I can't read your mind; I don't know if you were kidding or not. For all I know, you did mean those things, and just realized that you couldn't admit to such without suffering social consequences, like Schrödinger's Douchebag.

What I do know is that I've never once "jokingly" or "accidentally" denied the holocaust. Ever. In my entire life. And you never once denied saying those things. So while I don't know why you said them, I do know that you said them, and anybody who will do that is not somebody I can tolerate on the HLP Discord.

The precise words I used after saying such nearly two years ago was, quote, "I actually do believe six million Jews died in the Holocaust." I then repeated that "I do in fact believe six million Jews died."  This was the exact same day as said comments I was banned for were made. Six months later, after one of the individuals again attempted to claim I was a holocaust denier in the same chat, I stated again that quote, "I'm not a Holocaust denier." I have stuck to what I have said since as my previous post of believing the Holocaust happened and that Hitler was an evil man for nearly two years, regardless as to how many times Phantom has continued over said near-2 years to accuse me of such. There is no reason in the present day to doubt my views when two years of actions support the consistent narrative I have said again and again over that time. That is why I have a problem with this ban.

[Mongoose]

I am going to lock this thread temporarily because quite frankly it's generating a flood of reports and has become a massive headache. It will be unlocked in the near future once things have settled a bit.

[Fusion]

The fact the person who's harassed me with calls of "Nazi" and "holocaust denier" for almost 2 years is the same person who set the **** off with Mjn that drove him off HLP and the same person who tried to and successfully incited a group of people to get Goober deadminned is very concerning. Once is unintentional, twice is coincidence, three times is a habit, and I would recommend a reexamination of said person's presence in the community if they've continued to repeatedly follow this line of behavior.

[karajorma]

The fact the person who's harassed me with calls of "Nazi" and "holocaust denier" for almost 2 years

While I'm not going to make excuses for that behaviour and we are discussing several issues surrounding both of these matters internally, the fact remains that you wouldn't have faced two years of being called "Nazi" and "holocaust denier" if you hadn't thought it would be fun to pretend to be one.

Still think it was a good idea? Still think it was funny?